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#1900899
ATZs are a regular topic of conversation on the forum stirring much emotion.

On a present thread (viewtopic.php?p=1900854#p1900854) on the GA forum someone posted a link to a YT video where the pilot discusses infringing an ATZ.

I find it surprising this pilot was unaware he should not fly through an ATZ and that it was not taught during initial training, nor refresher training specific to a previous controlled airspace bust.

I'm curious as to what is being taught and thought there no better place to pose the question. :D

What is being being taught at present regarding ATZs; entering, leaving and transiting?

TIA
#1900947
I was taught last year for LAPL that request was needed in good time - including orbiting after T/O to be able to give within good time (think 5 mins) planned expected / entry and exit e.g. Charlbury VRP and Framlington VRP,. Course was at EGTN so v close.

On my QXC the zone was v busy and my FI checked by phone after I'd said I had received clearance just in time (it was quite close but ceiling was lowering in my opinion and was deffo wanting to get back)

Last week at Kidlington for NR it was made very clear that the zone is v close and to avoid at all costs other than emergency - so not clearance but in these parts the ATZ is I believe well observed and the FIs don't let us forget that.
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#1900959
Miscellaneous wrote:What is being being taught at present regarding ATZs; entering, leaving and transiting?


Not being facetious, but I'm not sure that anything is pro-actively 'taught'. I think this is something that is learnt by self-study, theory examination and then put into practise in front of an instructor who can correct/challenge as necessary.

All of this is basic Air Law that I covered as a student. I didn't undertake ground school where I learnt; I self-taught, like most. 2019, so hopefully not much has changed.

I don't recall it ever coming up in my lessons precisely because it was a non-issue; I knew what I needed to do and so made the appropriate calls before entering an ATZ and joining.

I don't recall my instructor sitting down in the pre-flight brief and specifically telling me how to join, transit or leave, nor would I necessarily have inspected them to. Had I tried to plough through an ATZ I am certain they would have intervened beforehand and either questioned my intentions or used it as the opportunity to explain the correct process. But, they didn't need to: it's surely assumed that you've studied it for Air Law.

As for what I learnt - and what I practised in front of my instructor:

After first contact: the usual type, POB, from/to, height, position, request.
Absolutely nothing at the point of entering the ATZ itself, (assuming I had been cleared previously)

Given my limited experience, I have never transited an ATZ outside CAS - if I'm entering an ATZ it will have been to land; if I'm en-route, I'll either avoid or fly overhead the airfield above the ATZ as I just don't see why you wouldn't (assuming no CAS above, sufficient cloudbase etc). Why would you choose to go through another airfield's overhead when you can avoid it? Of course, I would be speaking to them out of courtesy to let them know I was in the vicinity or passing above them.

If I'm leaving my home airfield's ATZ I will never make a call; I was always taught (by example) to make a call announcing you are leaving the circuit, not the ATZ. Having done the former, the latter is surely superfluous.

In practice, given difficulties in estimating distances accurately and the fact that not everyone flies with SkyDemon or a moving map, how are you supposed to know the exact point you're crossing the dotted line anyway?
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#1900964
Bathman wrote:Don't recall seeing POB in CAP413


Fair point, good spot, hands up. I've always included it when asked to pass my message, never been called up on it and indeed never realised it was only included in the taxi and distress messages until I just checked following this.
#1900999
flyingearly wrote:
Miscellaneous wrote:What is being being taught at present regarding ATZs; entering, leaving and transiting?


Not being facetious, but I'm not sure that anything is pro-actively 'taught'. g map, how are you supposed to know the exact point you're crossing the dotted line anyway?

Not facetious at all, FE. It reflects my own experience pretty closely. I remain confused as to exactly how an 'experienced' pilot, who has also been on an infringement, course;

a) thinks to is legal to route through an ATZ without permission.
b) even if legal considers it a sensible thing to do.

I'm at a loss. Maybe there is a need to specifically cover infringing in a ground school class??
#1901002
flyingearly wrote:
Bathman wrote:Don't recall seeing POB in CAP413


Fair point, good spot, hands up. I've always included it when asked to pass my message, never been called up on it and indeed never realised it was only included in the taxi and distress messages until I just checked following this.

With all respect, please tell us, the great unwashed, what POB means, and how it relates to passing through an ATZ?
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By bladerunner911
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1901003
My understanding was also not to enter an ATZ without establishing 2-way radio contact during operational hours.
I think it's maybe in Air Law or the Communications theory course, and possibly places like the SkyWay code.
I've had a couple of extra Radio training sessions that also established that you must make contact before entering an ATZ.
After watching that video, my mind was saying "where did you get your license, in the bottom of a cereal box?". It's not a nice thing to think, but I was shocked that someone flying for 10 years did not know this.
What other important basics were missing in the training...
To me though, even without knowing these rules, my instinct would be to remain outside an area with a busy concentration of aircraft in a relatively confined space.
The pilot did say he was keeping a good lookout, but I would be pretty freaked out if I was turning base when I was doing a circuit lesson, to see a random unannouced aircraft flying in front of me.
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By Milty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1901031
In my current training…

Recently transited Wellesbourne. About 10 mins from the ATZ, transferred to Wellesbourne frequency, initial call, pass your message, usual call sign, aircraft, altitude, QNH, from, to and what doing (passing south of ATZ). Asked to report abeam overhead IIRC correctly so not technically when entering ATZ. Not requested to report exiting but once clear, advised leaving frequency to BHX listening frequency/squawk.

MATZ transit of Brize was similar but was told when I entered and exited the zone by the controller IIRC (it was a little while ago).

When leaving Glos, I’ve never been taught to advise leaving ATZ but ATC always seem aware and basically give a basic service call at the point roughly that you have left or shortly after. Sometimes if busy, you have to request it.

When returning to Glos. Normal report 10m with full info and rejoin request, asked to report 3m then normally asked to report overhead or dead side.

For me, it been a combination of taught and learned from ground school study. Personally, I retain practical teaching better than theory but it would not enter my head not to announce transiting an ATZ. As for leaving, I don’t think I would specifically announce that as such but it seems to just happen in the normal course of calls from ATC or FISO so far in my experience.
#1901046
Useful post @Milty but caution, Brize isn’t an ATZ or a MATZ, it’s class D, so different rules apply. I think @TrickyWoo may have made the same mistake (as they are talking about Charlbury VRP).

The confusion has been because I was definitely taught (2001) that all you required was 2 way radio communications to enter an ATZ (and them reading back your callsign counted) but that doesn’t seem to be the current interpretation of the law.
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By Milty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1901060
@Miscellaneous only because in my very limited experience (25 hours, 3 solo and a few dual nav), whenever I’ve been in an ATZ, we’ve announced our pending arrival. So to date, I’ve experienced nothing else. This may change as I gain more experience.
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#1901067
bladerunner911 wrote:My understanding was also not to enter an ATZ without establishing 2-way radio contact during operational hours.


I don't think anyone would suggest this not to be the case.

What we are discussing here is, having made the initial call, established two-way contact, told them you are inbound for a butty and all the other stuff, then having to call them AGAIN at the moment you cross into the ATZ telling them where you are and how high you are.

Likewise outbound. Though I have less issue with this as I would call them anyway to tell them I am leaving their frequency. We just have to remember to calculate the approx height, or have SD showing height for that portion of the trip.

Rob P
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1901080
As some know. I hold Zoom radio and airspace courses. They started off almost 100% students, but now, unless requested by a school with a number of students ready to feed in, i regularly get 50%-75% qualified, and the 'extra' call actually entering the ATZ is news to all. Obviously the caa can throw it into a Comms e-exam easily now, so when they came in i emphasise this particular point in the short bit of pre-reading i send out, but mention they might not hear others doing it. The OP's question is what is taught, so here is one para from the pre-reading:
You cannot enter any active ATZ, civil or military, without speaking to the ground station first to establish activity within, and you do that before getting too close. General recommendations for calling to enter or cross any airspace entity are to do it 15 miles or 5 minutes flying time away.
According to the Air Navigation Order, in addition to the earlier call from a few miles away to first establish contact, you are also meant to report position and height when entering and also leaving an ATZ. This does not happen all the time in real life as you might notice, but is a legal requirement (so for example could come up in exams). So, legally, there are 3 mentions of mandatory calls for ATZ entry or transit. Call at a distance well before entry to establish activity within from the ground station, call with height and position on entering the ATZ, (and also same if leaving it, making 3 if it is an atz transit)

However, that was 'what is taught', whereas personal opinion:
I think it is unsafe to interpret the 'actual entry' bit (the 2nd call) as anything other than to 'call as soon as practical after entering an atz UNLESS asked to report somewhere specific inside like downwind' (and in practice will seriously wind up a very busy air/ground operator who asked you to report downwind)
PS: The quoted paragraph or two is not 'stand alone', it is part of a pre-read section on explaining what ATZs and MATZ are I don't expect students to know (or foreign trained pilots)
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