Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

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By bladerunner911
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#1901135
Rob P wrote:What we are discussing here is...


Sorry I was addressing the original post in my reply to "I find it surprising this pilot was unaware he should not fly through an ATZ and that it was not taught during initial training..."

In answer to your specific point about making a call as you actually enter / exit the ATZ, I don't recall ever having done that, or being asked to do that.
Usually on a lesson we would be asked to report overhead or something similar.

I only have abouut 20 hours as a student, and have not started Nav yet so have not spent a lot of time in and out of ATZs, but will certainly report back if I see any change to this during my training.
Last edited by bladerunner911 on Thu Feb 24, 2022 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#1901140
Thanks @Irv Lee .

My curiosity is not so much about what should be taught, but what is (or is not) being taught at various schools.

Referring back to the video linked in the other thread, which prompted my question here. Surely something is lacking when a ppl holder of 10yrs, with 3 infringements is still unaware of what is required.

Moreover, what does he think the purpose of an ATZ is?

Not being aware of the extra call I can understand.
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By T67M
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#1901144
Irv Lee wrote:As some know. I hold Zoom radio and airspace courses. They started off almost 100% students, but now, unless requested by a school with a number of students ready to feed in, I regularly get 50%-75% qualified, and the 'extra' call actually entering the ATZ is news to all.


I am shocked that the need to establish comms (or have agreed a NORDO arrival) with Tower before entering an ATZ should come as news to any solo-ready student pilot, never mind a qualified pilot. It was part of my training (in 1999).

The big concerns I have with the "Barton Interpretation" are that:
  • the radio call MUST be made at a very specific INSTANT in a flight (as you are crossing the ATZ boundary, not before, not after), presumably requiring fixed wing aircraft to "hover" until the pilot can speak on the radio
  • the message requires passing information (height) which requires the use of QFE which is being actively discouraged by other parts of the CAA due it being a causal factor in some airspace infringements.

My bold...
Irv Lee wrote:The OP's question is what is taught, so here is one para from the pre-reading:
You cannot enter any active ATZ, civil or military, without speaking to the ground station first to establish activity within, and you do that before getting too close. General recommendations for calling to enter or cross any airspace entity are to do it 15 miles or 5 minutes flying time away.
[snip]



It should be noted that 15 miles is outside of the DOC (Designated Operational Coverage) for most Tower frequencies (typically 10 miles), thus making the initial call at 15 miles is technically illegal.
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By Irv Lee
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#1901154
@T67M
It is the 2nd call that they do not know about. Not the 1st. The initial one is 99.99% known unless foreign trained.
and the 'extra' call actually entering the ATZ is news to all

I think we can all worry about this once we hear of whatever a CAA Staff Examiner is called nowadays failing an I/R Candidate on an ILS in Class D for not calling at the ATZ boundary either on the final approach or the go-around, or some Heathrow airline departure is MOR'd by ATC as it leaves.
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By T67M
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#1901220
Irv Lee wrote:@T67M
It is the 2nd call that they do not know about. Not the 1st. The initial one is 99.99% known unless foreign trained.


My comment was referring to the video shared earlier when a pilot claimed that he did not realise that a call was required when transiting through an ATZ, something he only learned on an infringement course having entered Lee on Solent's ATZ whilst talking to Bournemouth.
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By russp
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#1901221
Linked elsewhere on this forum this document from the CAA in May 2020 is very clear that the entering/leaving atz calls are required for both transits and arrivals/departures and not to do is is an offence - https://airspacesafety.com/wp-content/u ... 2020-1.pdf

From the document
"Failure to comply with Rule 11(6) erodes the safety barriers which prevent a mid air collision"
and later
"A pilot who has complied with Rule 11 (2)-(5) but has not reported entering the ATZ iaw Rule 11(6)(c) has not infringed the ATZ but has demonstrated poor airmanship and committed an offence. "
By UncleT
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#1901232
My experience during many hours training last year and the year before at an aerodrome with an ATZ and an AGCS:

On departure, a call was made to announce departing in whichever direction and leaving the frequency, but height was not reported in that call. The call was made when leaving the circuit, rather than specifically at the ATZ boundary, but the circuits were fairly wide on some runways and the call position would usually have been close to the ATZ boundary anyway.

On returning from a flight away, on every occasion a call was made with a few miles to run to establish contact with the AGCS and request airfield information. After receipt and acknowledgement of that information, no further call was ever made at the actual point of entry into the ATZ. My instructor never did so, I was never instructed to do so, the AGCS never commented on the need to do so, I never heard any other pilots do so and, as far as I am aware, nobody ever got charged with infringement of the ATZ as a result of not having made such a call.

Next call after initial contact was usually downwind, unless it was felt necessary to broadcast position for awareness of other aircraft in the circuit.
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By russp
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#1901234
UncleT wrote:My experience during many hours training last year and the year before at an aerodrome with an ATZ and an AGCS:
….After receipt and acknowledgement of that information, no further call was ever made at the actual point of entry into the ATZ. My instructor never did so, I was never instructed to do so, the AGCS never commented on the need to do so, I never heard any other pilots do so and, as far as I am aware, nobody ever got charged with infringement of the ATZ as a result of not having made such a call.

Next call after initial contact was usually downwind, unless it was felt necessary to broadcast position for awareness of other aircraft in the circuit.


That’s your experience but the document linked shows the CAA (not me) consider that every time you did that you were both guilty of poor airmanship and committing an offence (but not of an infringement).

Don’t worry you are far from the only one and most instruction seems to omit this point.


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By archerflyer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1901304
my expierence in training appears to be similar to most others; I self study and sit the e-exams and then my flying school teach me the practical side and we have a briefing before nav flights on what we'll encounter on the legs. They do check understanding and ask a lot of questions to check understanding of the theory side, but expectation is on me to learn it & they do fill in the gaps.

I've never actually flown into another ATZ unless I was landing there & the one exception so far, was overflying a military airbase - so was controlled.

on return to base, we call inbound and request the airfield info - we don't then follow up with a call that we're entering the ATZ. Typically the next call would be "base or final" which checking the chart, is "roughly" where the ATZ starts.

p.s. I only do overhead joins when the circuit is busy
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By Paul_Sengupta
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#1902643
T67M wrote:The big concerns I have with the "Barton Interpretation" are that:
  • the radio call MUST be made at a very specific INSTANT in a flight (as you are crossing the ATZ boundary, not before, not after), presumably requiring fixed wing aircraft to "hover" until the pilot can speak on the radio
  • the message requires passing information (height) which requires the use of QFE which is being actively discouraged by other parts of the CAA due it being a causal factor in some airspace infringements.


I think there's something of the Chinese whispers to this.

The original "Barton interpretation" was that two way communication must be established before entering the ATZ. This isn't what the law says for A/G or AFIS, which is why there is/was controversy. The law says that "the commander must obtain information from the flight information centre to enable the flight to be conducted safely within the aerodrome traffic zone. " or "the commander must obtain information from the air/ground communication service to enable the flight to be conducted safely within the aerodrome traffic zone. " which logic would interpret as obtaining the runway in use, circuit direction and the QNH/QFE, all of which can be obtained through listening.

This then lead on to people looking at what the law actually said, and the law talked about making the radio calls on entering and leaving the ATZ, with height, contrary to what people had actually been doing for years, and probably because of us highlighting that on here it has now been written into the CAA material. This has nothing to do with Barton.
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By robcurry
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1902905
When all else fails ... read the instructions:

Rule 11 of the Rules of the Air Regulations 2015

(para 1 and table 1 define the aerodromes at which the rule applies, I'm assuming we are at such an aerodrome)

(2) An aircraft must not fly, take off or land within the aerodrome traffic zone of an aerodrome unless the commander of the aircraft has complied with paragraphs (3), (4) or (5), as appropriate.

(3) If the aerodrome has an air traffic control unit the commander must obtain the permission of that unit to enable the flight to be conducted safely within the aerodrome traffic zone.

(4) If the aerodrome provides a flight information service the commander must obtain information from the flight information centre to enable the flight to be conducted safely within the aerodrome traffic zone.

(5) If there is no flight information centre at the aerodrome the commander must obtain information from the air/ground communication service to enable the flight to be conducted safely within the aerodrome traffic zone.

So before taking-off, landing or flying within an ATZ (2), to enable the flight to be conducted safely within the ATZ, we have to obtain permission (ATC (3)) or information (AFISO (4) or AGCS (5)). This has to be obtained before flying within the ATZ ('cos (2) says so) which I guess has to be done by prior arrangement if you're NORDO or, for the rest of us, on the radio. Simples.

Once you're flying in the ATZ:

(6) The commander of an aircraft flying within the aerodrome traffic zone of an aerodrome must—

(a)cause a continuous watch to be maintained on the appropriate radio frequency notified for communications at the aerodrome; or
(b)if this is not possible, cause a watch to be kept for such instructions as may be issued by visual means; and
(c)if the aircraft is fitted with means of communication by radio with the ground, communicate the aircraft’s position and height to the air traffic control unit, the flight information centre or the air/ground communications service unit at the aerodrome (as the case may be) on entering the aerodrome traffic zone and immediately prior to leaving it.

Subsection (c) is problematic if taken literally (what happens if the radio is busy as I'm about to leave the ATZ? Orbit inside until I can tell the controller/FISO/AG operator my position and height?) but in practise I think it's not an issue (glad to be informed otherwise). And it's a good idea to do so because it increases the SA of those other pilots arriving/leaving.

Like @Irv Lee, I too am waiting for the first prosecution of a passenger airliner captain not reporting their position and height as they enter the ATZ at Heathrow. It is a criminal offense not to do so, dontchaknow :roll: