Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

Moderator: AndyR

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By Milty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1897571
I’m looking for a bit of clarification on how ‘accurate’ the FRTOL test is likely to be as I’m seeing a few differences between what I see/hear in practice vs CAP413.

For example, getting ready for departure/takeoff clearance. In practice, I’ve been using and hearing others as follows after declaring ready for departure…

Tower “G-MT, runway 27, wind xxx, cleared for takeoff”

Readback I have been using and hearing “cleared for takeoff, G-MT”

but CAP413 states readback… “runway 27, cleared for takeoff, G-MT”. I do understand having just taken comms that a runway identification should be a compulsory readback and it has been in the lead up to the takeoff clearance but it seems to be missed by me and others.

I suspect that it should be as per CAP413 but actual practice just gets a bit watered down but just want to check.

Similarly, if reporting a position on the test and you say “G-MT, altitude 2000, Cessna 152….” instead of “G-MT, Cessna 152, altitude 2000…”, does a puppy die and you fail?
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1897575
You cannot too far wrong at an atc place by repeating back what was said in the order it was said but callsign at the end, except for some reason, wind vector. If i mis-hear the wind vector, nobody knows to correct it, and it could lead to a crash, but that seems to be acceptable!
Don't listen to what you hear others say in flight, you will be as bad as they are! (Eg do not use the 'discretion' phrase in reply to an afiso using it )
Last edited by Irv Lee on Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By Rob P
#1897577
The FRTOL test is in transition and the feedback I'm hearing from the BGA FRTOL course is that you don't fail for an isolated mistake. Remember, however, that the examiners are new to the format as well so there are inevitably inconsistencies.

But yes, runway number is a compulsory read back.

Rob P
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1897579
New test: I am guessing some examiners will drop out, prices will go up, and more will fail. I am still doing the old ones and if anyone want to get in quick, i am running my zoom radio/airspace course all in one day in the 12th, only 3x 90 mins, doesn't include the test of course, (but does have a moving map demo of a navex), the test is separate and doesn't have to be with me.
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By A4 Pacific
#1897589
I tend to be a fairly ‘practical’ flyer. So pass your test, then learn what works/is safe/is unambiguous. (Even in places where English is not the first language!)

I would say, even in practice, ALWAYS read back the runway you’ve been cleared to take off from/cross/hold short of. Because you might not always be flying from single runway airfields. It’s rather important that any controller and you are referring to the same runway. Once you’ve passed your radio license you will require no further radio qualifications to operate into Heathrow, Charles de Gaul, or if you’re really unlucky Dublin! So get it right.

Also, the words “take off” should only ever be used by ATC immediately after the words “cleared for”. (Or at the very least when you actually are cleared to take off!) So my reply would simply be “TAKE OFF 27 LEFT” for example. It is as concise as it can possibly be, but conveys everything anyone on frequency needs to know.
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By Rob P
#1897591
A4 Pacific wrote: So my reply would simply be “TAKE OFF 27 LEFT” for example. It is as concise as it can possibly be, but conveys everything anyone on frequency needs to know.

Brief, and to the point. But I would favour "Taking off 27 left" to avoid any possible confusion by another aircraft thinking that I am ATC clearing them.

Rob P
By A4 Pacific
#1897593
Rob P wrote:
A4 Pacific wrote: So my reply would simply be “TAKE OFF 27 LEFT” for example. It is as concise as it can possibly be, but conveys everything anyone on frequency needs to know.

Brief, and to the point. But I would favour "Taking off 27 left" to avoid any possible confusion by another aircraft thinking that I am ATC clearing them.

Rob P


Hi Rob

To anyone else on frequency, it doesn’t really matter if they do think it’s ATC. It’s crystal clear to all what is about to happen.

The difficulty with making transmissions longer than is absolutely necessary, is that at busy airfields you increase the likelihood of part of the transmission being blocked. Generally the only people not realising their transmissions have been blocked, are the people making them.

All that said, I certainly accept it’s personal preference and non standard. But as is my usual test, I can happily justify it at the subsequent court case.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kjLrZ2SDDaU

An incident of interest regarding some of the items under discussion?
Last edited by A4 Pacific on Sat Feb 05, 2022 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Rob P
#1897601
A4 Pacific wrote:To anyone else on frequency, it doesn’t really matter if they do think it’s ATC. It’s crystal clear to all what is about to happen.

It doesn't matter if another aircraft on frequency believes they have just been instructed to take off on the runway you are using?

I'd say it mattered greatly.

Rob P
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By A4 Pacific
#1897603
Rob P wrote:
A4 Pacific wrote:To anyone else on frequency, it doesn’t really matter if they do think it’s ATC. It’s crystal clear to all what is about to happen.

It doesn't matter if another aircraft on frequency believes they have just been instructed to take off on the runway you are using?

I'd say it mattered greatly.

Rob P


If you and I were both at the Cat II hold in say 75m visibility, and for some reason you had only just joined the frequency. (Because had you been listening you could have easily differentiated who was ATC and who was an aircraft) So let’s say the first thing you heard was me say “TAKE OFF 27L Fireball XL5” Why would you think you were cleared for take off? You haven’t heard your call sign, (in fact you’ve heard another!) and you haven’t heard the words “clear for take off!”

EVEN IF YOU DID think I was actually ATC clearing you, presumably you would then immediately respond with your “TAKING OFF 27L Knucklehead ABC

What do you think would happen then?

And by the way, try asking somebody who’s first language isn’t English what the difference between “take off” and “taking off” is. You might be disappointed with the level of understanding.

Even I could mis-hear “taking off” as “take off”, so it’s not really clear to me what problem you think you are solving?