Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

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By Milty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1910521
Sounds like a great day.

I think instructors sometimes forget that they’ve had years of experience of judging heights and glide distance etc. I’ve also struggled with this on PFL’s so fa but I expect it will come with a bit of practice. I remember early lessons when he would say ‘we’re about 3 miles from X’ and I had no idea how he knew. Now I’m finding it easier to roughly judge these things. It comes with experience I guess.

I’m looking forward to a refresher lesson like yours. Been a while since I’ve done a lot of those things. I believe my instructor works on getting all the info transferred in a reasonable timescale, then basically revising up to (and beyond if needed) the required 45 hours. I quite like this approach rather than labouring on one topic until perfect before moving on as I’ve seen others do.
ericgreveson liked this
#1910522
Eric,

did you notice some poor bug**r having to do some decking in their back garden during your landings. If so, that was me.

Seriously, it sounds like you had a good lesson and a bit of a refresher before your GST. I am curious to know if you can side slip a C152 to lose some height during PFL or EFATO. It can get you right to the start of the field or maybe even under those pesky power lines if there are no other options.

I know that in theory you can but seem to remember something about no side slips with flaps on C150/2 or maybe C172. Always intrigued me that because a crosswind landing (effectively wing down into the wind and opposite rudder) sounds very much like a side slip
ericgreveson liked this
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By Milty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1910523
I don’t know anything official, but certainly been shown a side slip to lose height on a PFL in a 152. Don’t recall the flap configuration if I’m honest.
#1910539
Yep, it's fine to side slip a C152 with or without flaps. I think some C172 POHs might prohibit side slip with full flap, but I haven't flown one of those yet! You're right that crosswind landing with rudder and wing down is a side slip (I think some people call it a 'forward slip' but as I understand it there is no difference from the aerodynamic point of view). I guess the prohibition in the 172 might apply to full rudder slips with full flap since obviously a bit of rudder and wing down will happen on approach anyway. And indeed side slipping was one of the options my instructor suggested for getting in to the field.

Didn't see anyone installing some decking though, too busy misjudging distances and heights ;)

[usermention=25385]@Milty[/usermention] yes I think it sounds like the same approach - do each item in the syllabus once (or to a satisfactory standard) and then revise before GST to make sure everything has sunk in! Which it obviously hasn't quite yet for me. Now at 44 hours ish so I will soon be at the minimum time at least... Also have booked FRTOL exam for Friday, need to find time in the week to brush up on that!
Milty liked this
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1910541
ericgreveson wrote:
>
> but again ended up a bit high on final despite noticing a bit earlier
> this time and putting more flap on more quickly. So, this seems to be my
> weakest area at the moment, I am not that good at judging the PFL height /
> circuit pattern!

What proportion of your normal circuit work is glide approaches?
#1910554
Not as much as I'd like - at Cambridge we're not allowed to do glide approaches at the weekend (no ATC). However I've done a few now and I find it a bit easier when I start off at circuit height and there is a big obvious runway for visual reference. When starting higher up with only fields below, I think I misjudge the scale of things a bit and end up too high at the end of my planned "downwind" reference point which is itself probably too close to the selected field. Hopefully I'll get another chance to practise this afternoon and will try to widen things out by about 20% or so...
#1910639
Having only landed on a hard surface runway once, I guess airfields and plain ordinary fields are pretty similar for me so maybe height judgement is better. However, for PFLs have you not been taught the beats method? Seems more controlled than trying to fly a circuit into chosen field and you can keep your potential energy (height) much longer

Basically get yourself a little downwind of your chosen field and then just glide back and forth at approx 90 degrees to the field until low enough to break for the centre of the field. Then just use side-slip to bring your landing point closer to the start of the field. Add flaps as necessary and land. The reason for using slips is that you can always return to 'normal' glide. Introduce too much flap too early and you are stuck with that amount of flap.

Then again, sometimes different things just work better for different people as they are able to visualise things differently. The most important thing is to get down safely enough that you can walk away.
ericgreveson liked this
#1910651
Haven't been taught the beats method - that does make sense, but I guess in both cases you need to be able to judge when it's OK to turn towards final for the field! The good news is that I have been practising some more today...

First of all, it was another dual revision lesson where we started with me answering what to do if we had an engine fire when starting - this was easy enough since I'd checked up on it before the lesson, to ensure my reasoning matched the checklist! We then headed out on runway 05, and I was given an EFATO (which I was expecting as my instructor had mentioned it was something we would cover today) - this was fine as there are plenty of fields past the end of 05, though all of them have crops in at this time of year. We then did some revision of precautionary landings - circuit at 1000', circuit at 600' and then back up to 1000' with a circuit to set up for landing. Did this at Waterbeach again, and I got it mostly fine, although it was recommended that I am more vocal about why I am choosing which direction to land in (i.e. into wind) for the skills test.

Climbed away and went up towards 3000' and was given a PFL - remembered all the stages correctly (apart from forgetting altitude in simulated mayday call again) but went a bit fast (closer to 70-75kt at some times) due to not trimming quite right for 65kt at the start and getting distracted during engine shutdown drills etc. Once again, found it difficult to quickly pick a good field into wind, ended up choosing one in a mostly crosswind direction (although wind was very light today, only 5kt or so) because they all look like they have high crops or are ploughed or are too small! I think I am trying to find the perfect field each time, whereas a big one with a non-awful surface would probably suffice. Tried to add about 20% of width and distance to the circuit to get a better approach than yesterday - and it was better (width was about right) but I was a bit high on the turn to base and final again and had to sideslip a lot with full flap to get down although it looked like we might make it for once. Climbed away and got given an EFATO - chose a suitable looking field off to the left (into wind) which got some brownie points at least.

Back up to 2000' and was given another PFL - this time I did choose a field into wind, but it was off ahead and to the left, so wasn't able to fly a circuit pattern around it. Instead I did something that sounds like the "beats method" mentioned by [usermention=25776]@FlyingBoot[/usermention] which would have probably worked out but again was a bit close to the field when turning in. This was a bit more difficult since some hard to see telegraph cables showed up when we got closer to the field, in addition to the power lines at the far end, but I would probably have been able to make it over the telegraph cables and under the power lines! Again not an ideal choice (the cables plus some mid-height crops and its location) so I seemed to be able to make a quick bad choice or a slow OK choice... yet more practise needed!

We went back to Cambridge for an overhead join - this was fine at least, although I was told that I was a bit "verbose" when announcing our approach 5 miles away from the airfield, describing our location, altitude, and the fact we were incoming for an OHJ in probably more words than I needed to - and entered the circuit, with instructions to do a glide approach on the main runway and then a "bad weather" circuit with precision (short field) landing on the grass runway. For the glide approach, I took the "initially aim for 1/3 down the runway and ensure you can make it" instructions a bit too literally, having to put all of the flap on and still landing about 1/3 down the runway, but at least we were a bit long and not a bit short, and it is a very long runway. Did the low level circuit reasonably well, holding altitude and speed at the desired levels, but was a bit tight for the final turn and as it was obviously not going to be a precision landing (would have been past the numbers) we went around for another try. This one was much better, I waited a bit longer before turning final and approached at the right speed with just a few metres of extra unnecessary flare past the numbers. Taxied back to the club for a snack before heading out solo!

I needed at least 1:10 solo time to get to the minimum 10 hours, so was told to head somewhere and practise stalls, steep turns, PFLs and radio nav position fixes, then come back and try some solo glide approach / precision landing practise. Since my house is a short distance north of Cambridge and in a good spot for handling practise, I decided to do this mostly in sight of my back garden. Started with the steep turns (since these were the ones I was most confident with) - good lookout, then a couple to the right, and a couple to the left, rolling out on particular headings. These were all fine, so I headed back up to 4000' for some stalls. Did a couple of clean power-off stalls which went fine, then a couple of landing configuration (full flap and some power) which were also OK although it took a while to get the stall warner on fully the first time (needed to pull back more). Did a couple of turn-to-final 20-degree-flap recover-on-the-stall-warner stalls too, and then decided I was OK with them, so did a steep descending turn with 20 degrees flap to get down to 2500'. Gave myself a PFL, and took a while to select a field again, but chose one with a good surface in a reasonable direction and set up the circuit pattern a bit better this time. Didn't manage airspeed perfectly (a bit fast at times) and the relatively slow selection of field meant that I didn't have lots of time left for the engine restart, mayday, engine shutdown and passenger briefing, but I got through them all as I turned to final - at a more reasonable height this time. Convinced myself that it looked OK and climbed away from 500'. When back up over 2200' I gave myself another PFL and did a better job of field selection (into wind) and a reasonable circuit pattern, although needed full flap to get down (a bit close on final again). Back up again and figured I had time for one more PFL - this one was the best of the lot so I think I have made a bit of progress there.

I wanted to give myself a bit of circuit time so headed back to Cambridge for an OHJ at 2000', which all went smoothly but was a good test of situational awareness since there was another student taking off for a 2000' overhead departure as I was arriving! Visual with the climbing aircraft, I made sure to call my position to Cambridge Traffic as I approached and steered behind them to keep well clear. Made my first circuit a glide approach, and this was much better than the previous dual lesson - landed at a sensible point a bit past the numbers, nice and smoothly and on the centreline, and then went around again to practise another glide approach on the grass runway. This was set up so nicely that I decided to turn it into a glide precision landing with full flap, and ended up bang on the numbers with a bit of a crosswind - very satisfying. One more circuit to land, the wind was basically 90 degrees to the runway now (although still quite light) so a fair amount of rudder and wing down was needed, but it was again totally fine.

I now have 10h 05m of solo time, and about 46 hours total... so after my FRTOL exam on Friday, I have booked a mock skills test for a couple of weeks' time, and then if all goes to plan it will be the real thing... gulp!
#1910677
Seems like you have managed to get to a really good point in almost minimum hours. Great progress. I am not sure how you found the time to squeeze all those lessons in but well done. Good luck with the FRTOL, that's somethng I need to get sorted out.
#1911163
With my FRTOL exam being just over a day away, and really REALLY not wanting to fail (for various reasons but also because the format changes after May and our local examiner won't be licensed to do them any more), I have been doing a bit of revision to try to make sure I have prepared enough. My learning has been based on the Comms book, CAP413, the G-UDRT app, the Safety Sense Radiotelephony leaflet (which is excellent and has a transcript of an example exam at the end!), the SRG1171 form, and of course all of my lessons to date in the air.

I came across the SRG1171 form myself and it says: "Completion of this form is mandatory and is to be declared to the FRTOL Examiner prior to the FRTOL practical test". Is this still a thing that has to be done? Nobody has mentioned it to me yet but I might print one off just in case (maybe the flying school already has filled one out for me in my file somewhere, I don't know...).

In any case, I feel like I can probably muddle through most aspects of aerodrome R/T (startup, radio check, taxi, take-off, etc), circuits, departing, arriving, changing frequency, requesting MATZ penetrations, LARS, and generally "getting around". I've been fortunate to have done my training at a mix of ATC, AFIS and unattended aerodromes plus a couple of landaways at AGCS aerodromes, so I feel reasonably confident about how to make requests and when to follow instructions etc under the various different levels of control / service. I think I will also recognise all the mandatory readback items when they come up. However, things like Mayday, Pan-Pan, relay of emergency calls, VDF (like requesting QDMs), and zone crossings have only been demonstrated and practised once or twice, and I have never requested or seen an SVFR clearance or a DACS or DAAIS so my knowledge of these is limited to the books. As such I will note down the main "cheat sheet" items that I think I need to remember, and if anyone is reading and spots something wrong feel free to call it out!

1) Responses to "Pass your message": ADDPAR
A - Aircraft callsign and type
D - Departure
D - Destination
P - Position
A - Altitude + QNH
R - Request, additional details, intention

Example:
G-ABCD, C152, Cambridge to Cambridge, overhead Waterbeach, altitude 2000 on QNH 1020, squawking 7000, request MATZ penetration

2) Mayday / Pan-Pan structure: CATNIP AHQA (side note: if lost, and not currently receiving a service, can do Pan-Pan to London Centre squawking 0030)
C - Call sign of Station
A - Aircraft callsign
T - Type
N - Nature of issue
I - Intentions
P - Position
A - Altitude
H - Heading
Q - Qualifications
A - Anything else that will be useful info (typically at least the number of POB)

Example:
Mayday Mayday Mayday, London Centre, Student G-ABCD, C152, engine fire, making forced landing in field, 2 miles north Wyton, altitude 2100, heading 180 degrees, student pilot, 1 POB

3) Relaying a Mayday (this is the one I think I find most difficult to remember correctly, and especially to write down all details when listening!)
Mayday Mayday Mayday
(station addressed)
(my callsign)
Have intercepted Mayday from
(their callsign)
I say again
(their callsign followed by all the remaining TNIP AHQA details that have been recorded)

Example:
Mayday Mayday Mayday, London Centre, Student G-ERIC, have intercepted Mayday from G-ABCD, I say again, G-ABCD, C152, engine failure, making forced landing in field, 5 miles south Snetterton, altitude 1100, heading 013, PPL, 2 POB

4) Requesting a QDM, QDR or QTE:
- can use "Homer" as callsign for VDF-equipped stations rather than the usual "Approach / Radar" although probably OK to use either
- Normal request but add your callsign at the end as well as the start
- Expect to read back both a bearing and accuracy (typically Bravo meaning within +/- 5 degrees)
- For QTE, CAP 413 gives a slightly different format of message than the QDM examples. For their QTE example they use "True bearing" and also prefix this twice. I'm not sure why, or if this can be used as standard for e.g. QDM as well and it's just another way to do the same thing and extend the call a bit more to give the VDF equipment more time to "lock on"?

Examples:
Cambridge Homer, G-ABCD, request QDM, G-ABCD
or
True bearing, true bearing, Cambridge Homer, G-ABCD, request true bearing, G-ABCD

5) Position reports: APTAN
A - Aircraft callsign
P - Position
T - Time
A - Altitude
N - Next position and ETA

Example:
G-ABCD overhead Wyton at 25, altitude 2000, Cambridge 34

6) Zone crossing:
Start things off with something like "Luton Radar, G-ABCD, Request zone transit". If not talking to them already: maybe also request a Basic Service at the same time and expect a "Pass your message" too. Include flight rules (VFR) when passing message along with the usual ADDPAR. Then expect lots of things to come back e.g. squawk / QNH, maybe a request for reporting at VRPs, maybe remaining outside, or even a clearance. If a clearance is given, write down all details and limits and read them back. Also expect "Radar control" when in the zone (just reply "Radar control" and follow instructions). Things like "Report field in sight" may be common.

7) DACS / DAAIS: just a normal request describing which danger area it is (Delta + number)

Example:
Someplace Approach, G-ABCD, Request Danger Area Crossing Service for Delta 123

8) Special VFR: just request it when "passing your message" along with e.g. zone entry / join request when below weather minima

Example:
G-ABCD, C152, Cambridge to Luton, 2 miles southwest Bedford, altitude 1500 on QNH 1010, Request Special VFR zone entry and join


Bonus things I will almost certainly forget:
- Say "hectopascals" after a QNH/QFE below 1000
- Say "degrees" after headings ending with 0
- Don't say "ten miles south Wyton" or whatever - it is "one zero miles south Wyton"
- FL100 is "flight level one hundred" but FL110 is "flight level one one zero". (I won't be going that high anyway though ;-) )
- "Correction" is my friend
Milty, bladerunner911 liked this
#1911172
Okay, and this is only for my understanding as I have had very limited contact with anything other than A/G,

Why in 1) for the altitude/height report do you give the QNH. Will it not be given to you anyway as an ASR QNH or alternatively a local QNH/QFE (depending on your request). I think I have done this but have always then been given a pressure reference to use.

Also why the squawk? I can't see it in the safety sense leaflet so need to know if this is necessary.

Most of the rest seems to make sense with my understanding but I have no clue about SVFR procedures (need to learn) or the correct terminology for QDM, QTE or QDR. I think a lot of it is to fill time so that they can get a lock on your transmission. Seems to go against the keep it concise principle.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911178
ericgreveson wrote:
> Well... that's suitably worrying for me ;) thanks though!

It wasn't remotely intended to worry you. I've read your posts for a while, and it's obvious you're doing fine.

I just meant that there are procedural details in the way you'll have been preparing for it, where you're current in the minutiae of the corners of CAP413 that are examined but rarely encountered, where I'd be less than completely confident.

I was recently asked, for instance, in most un-CAP413 language, by Luton Radar, to go hunt for an aircraft with engine problems to confirm that he was on the ground ok (he was). But I'm far from sure I'd be able to relay a Mayday call and get everything in the right order.

And to be honest, whether I'd do a strict CAP413 call for my own mayday if I had one would depend entirely how busy I was flying the aeroplane.

But I'll revise a few things, methinks...
ericgreveson liked this
#1911180
I'll try to be reassuring -
The examiner wants you to pass, they are not out to trick you, they just need to be confident that you are reasonably competent
The order of stuff is less important than getting all the items into the transmission
If they say something like "that's vfr" after you've read back a clearance it's because you left it out and need to say it
Be confident - treat the examiner as you would real ATC, remember they are there to help you, not the other way round.

Good luck
But you must get the mayday or mayday relay call right!
ericgreveson, TopCat liked this
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