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Moderator: AndyR

#1886778
AndyR wrote:
Had a basic service from Solent Radar recently, who did call me with anything that looked conflicting. (Including a helimed, who actually passed quite close).


Which then makes it a Traffic Service not a Basic Service


I don’t think so, it was a basic service, so they didn’t HAVE to call me with every piece of traffic that went past.

There was a marked difference from the traffic service I picked up on the same trip.

When I picked up that traffic service at Odiham (though they didn’t provide it, I forget who they handed me off to), I was getting called up with things like

G-PK traffic, left to right, 2 miles, 500 feet below.

which personally I’d not call conflicting and just illicits “looking” once a minute.

When I spoke to Solent, they only told me a few, like “traffic, helimed, right to left, similar height, 1/2 mile, now 1 mile to your right”

To which I was able to respond visual and passing behind.

I didn’t even see most of the traffic from the traffic service.

(Tbh, the traffic service was picked up by me calling Odiham, passing my message, actually being asked if I’d like a traffic service, thinking “not had one of those before, you’ve obviously got time, I asked for basic, and you’ve asked me if I’d like traffic, let’s try it”, saying “yes”, and immediately being handed off with glee.
I do wonder whether it was a ploy, and I do wonder if the person I was handed off to was thinking “right, I’ll call out everything within 5 miles, that’ll show him”, not knowing it wasn’t my idea)
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1886789
AndyR wrote:
Had a basic service from Solent Radar recently, who did call me with anything that looked conflicting. (Including a helimed, who actually passed quite close).


Which then makes it a Traffic Service not a Basic Service


No, it makes it a proper Flight Information Service.... :wink:
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By rikur_
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1886797
skydriller wrote:
AndyR wrote:
Had a basic service from Solent Radar recently, who did call me with anything that looked conflicting. (Including a helimed, who actually passed quite close).


Which then makes it a Traffic Service not a Basic Service


No, it makes it a proper Flight Information Service.... :wink:

Which makes it that service that you want, but can't specify ..... i.e. notify me of traffic that I realistically need to know about, not everything within a huge bubble around me.

I recall the time someone asked for a traffic service for a MATZ transit of Linton back in the day when it was still busy. The controller made the point of continuously passing another piece of traffic information each time a readback was complete. Over 5 minutes of continuous traffic information. His life would have been much easier on a basic service, and I am pretty sure the controller still wouldn't let him fly head first into one of their students.
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By AndyR
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1886799
I appreciate that, but the reason it was all changed was to try and stop a service being what the controller decided it would include. Some provided a FIS as per the book, others have you a RIS type FIS and you never knew what you were getting. So we are back where we were, different agencies giving different levels of the same service.

I either just listen (on a listening squawk where available) or take a Traffic Service, much as the bubble for that is too large for a light aircraft. Unless talking to Scottish.
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By T67M
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1886809
There are several options of who to listen to whilst flying OCAS in the UK. Here's the mental list I have when choosing who to listen/talk to, starting (and ending) with what I actually want out of the radio service when flying for pleasure.

What I want: ability to "bimble" whilst receiving tactical notification about aircraft on a conflicting course when they are close enough that I might actually be able to see them, strategic notification about traffic "hot spots", with coordinated handovers on a single squawk code and clearances through controlled airspace on a relatively quiet radio frequency (no "life stories").

What I get with Mode-S, a listening squawk for a non-LARS ATC unit and EC in-and-out: ability to "bimble", reasonable albeit incomplete traffic information (tactical and strategic), relatively easy changes to the next controller (just change the frequency and a pre-briefed squawk code), no clearances through controlled airspace but hopefully quick resolution if I do infringe.

What I get with Mode-S, a listening squawk for a LARS ATC unit and EC in-and-out: as above, but with added life stories.

What I get with Mode-S and a listening squawk (no EC-in): as above but without the traffic information - pilot position reports quickly go out of date and are (sadly) wrong more often than they are correct.

What I get with a Basic Service: as above, but with extra radio workload for the pilot "signing off and on" with freecall after freecall and constant changes to largely unpredictable squawk codes.

What I get with a Traffic Service: as above, but must also notify of heading and altitude changes (ie no "bimbling") whilst getting notification of every aircraft within 5nm of me even if we're never going to get close enough to see each other.

What I would get if only we had a properly integrated ATC offering FIS along the lines of the FAA/USA Flight Following: ability to "bimble" with notification of most aircraft on a conflicting course generally close enough that they are visible but little or no strategic traffic information, with fully coordinated handovers on a single squawk from take-off to landing and pro-active clearances through controlled airspace.

As you might guess, my preference is for non-LARS listening squawks (officially called Frequency Monitoring Codes, FMCs), and most of my flying (from Redhill) is done using an EC device (PilotAware in most aircraft, Avidyne TAS605 in one) whilst tuned to Gatwick Director with a listening squawk. If heading North West (one of my common routes), I generally prefer to talk to Heathrow and get a zone transit (never yet been refused) than navigate the mess that is Farnborough. Your preference may be different to mine, and that's absolutely fine, but I think it's important to build up a realistic understanding of all of the options available to you. Sadly many pilots are "scared" of the radio, and especially of the "big" ATC units, but at the end of the day, they're all just human beings and they will help you: I had cause to issue a Pan call to Gatwick Director due to an intermittent magneto failure whilst flying on a listening squawk just outside the Gatwick CTA and they coordinated everything beautifully for me despite the Pan call being my first transmission on their frequency.
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By rikur_
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1886814
@T67M Good summary. I do wonder if there's a regional variation to this too. The bulk of my flying is Lincs/Yorkshire/Northumberland and I end-up preferring the not so basic basic service (with EC in/out), with LARS units with 40nm radii and predictable squawks. I can pass my details in 6 seconds. I'll IFR transit just inside Doncaster's CTA when heading north-south and enjoy radar control.

Edit: I'd misunderstood your EC point, ignore previous comment!
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#1886844
T67M wrote:There are several options of who to listen to whilst flying OCAS in the UK. Here's the mental list I have when choosing who to listen/talk to, starting (and ending) with what I actually want out of the radio service when flying for pleasure.

What I want: ability to "bimble" whilst receiving tactical notification about aircraft on a conflicting course when they are close enough that I might actually be able to see them, strategic notification about traffic "hot spots", with coordinated handovers on a single squawk code and clearances through controlled airspace on a relatively quiet radio frequency (no "life stories").

What I get with Mode-S, a listening squawk for a non-LARS ATC unit and EC in-and-out: ability to "bimble", reasonable albeit incomplete traffic information (tactical and strategic), relatively easy changes to the next controller (just change the frequency and a pre-briefed squawk code), no clearances through controlled airspace but hopefully quick resolution if I do infringe.

What I get with Mode-S, a listening squawk for a LARS ATC unit and EC in-and-out: as above, but with added life stories.

What I get with Mode-S and a listening squawk (no EC-in): as above but without the traffic information - pilot position reports quickly go out of date and are (sadly) wrong more often than they are correct.

What I get with a Basic Service: as above, but with extra radio workload for the pilot "signing off and on" with freecall after freecall and constant changes to largely unpredictable squawk codes.

What I get with a Traffic Service: as above, but must also notify of heading and altitude changes (ie no "bimbling") whilst getting notification of every aircraft within 5nm of me even if we're never going to get close enough to see each other.

What I would get if only we had a properly integrated ATC offering FIS along the lines of the FAA/USA Flight Following: ability to "bimble" with notification of most aircraft on a conflicting course generally close enough that they are visible but little or no strategic traffic information, with fully coordinated handovers on a single squawk from take-off to landing and pro-active clearances through controlled airspace.

As you might guess, my preference is for non-LARS listening squawks (officially called Frequency Monitoring Codes, FMCs), and most of my flying (from Redhill) is done using an EC device (PilotAware in most aircraft, Avidyne TAS605 in one) whilst tuned to Gatwick Director with a listening squawk. If heading North West (one of my common routes), I generally prefer to talk to Heathrow and get a zone transit (never yet been refused) than navigate the mess that is Farnborough. Your preference may be different to mine, and that's absolutely fine, but I think it's important to build up a realistic understanding of all of the options available to you. Sadly many pilots are "scared" of the radio, and especially of the "big" ATC units, but at the end of the day, they're all just human beings and they will help you: I had cause to issue a Pan call to Gatwick Director due to an intermittent magneto failure whilst flying on a listening squawk just outside the Gatwick CTA and they coordinated everything beautifully for me despite the Pan call being my first transmission on their frequency.


Thank you. Very much. (One for the wall).

Does life story mean more than 'student, jet provost, from lgw, to redhill, vmc, alt and request bss'? Do some folks give more than that?

Post LAPL I need to do 10 hrs solo and much time will doubtless be spent on VOR / DME, ATC and FMC stuff (love radio). Find my own way and all that but your post and the others are really informative and appreciated.

Re EC I did buy SkyEcho after the CAA / Wee Grant said 'you'll get £250 back' (and I registered in the CAA portal) then they sent an email following my receipt of purchase and CAA number saying 'but you're not a pilot. Sonny.' I'll try again after test but not that fussed - seems so obvious an accessory that the £500 is well spent indeed.
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By Iceman
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1886877
As many have no doubt said, the longer that you fly in England / Wales, the more likely it is that you will only actually request a service if you think that you’re going to get something beneficial from it. This invariably means that unless you require the weather for somewhere or activation of a flight-plan or it’s a pre-cursor to entering controlled airspace, you don’t bother with a BS from anywhere. Unless you can get a TS/DS, best just to listen in and form a mental picture from what you are hearing on either local frequencies, if available, otherwise London Info. En route, if not getting a useful service, I most often listen to local ATIS and VOLMET, possibly London Info, but listening to the latter tends to wind the Carp out of me so I turn it off. Always 121.5 on box 2. In Scotland, you get a useful service from Scottish Info so always talk to them on their various frequencies, e.g., approaching Glenforsa in September, Scottish Info were actually looking at the hotel webcam and reporting observed weather. The lesson is, unless you actually require something, don’t clutter the airways with garbage talk. This philosophy used to be very much the mantra of Paris Info who would often state “if you need something, give me a call, otherwise go away”. They have become a lot more useful in recent years with a more-TS like service.

Don’t forget when flying abroad (in the future) that the rest of the world has no idea what a ‘Basic Service’ is, a peculiarity of the UK only :roll:.

Iceman 8)
#1886895
As a newly qualified pilot, I’m finding this threat really informative. I find I request a BS for the QNH so that I don’t bust airspace (if it’s different to where I’ve taken off from).

From reading this thread, it seems people prefer to just listen in rather than actively request a BS.

Have I got this right? :D
#1886898
YorkshireMatt wrote:From reading this thread, it seems people prefer to just listen in rather than actively request a BS.

Have I got this right? :D

We can only speak for ourselves, but in my case, yes. :thumleft:

Rob P
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By David Wood
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1886906
YorkshireMatt wrote:As a newly qualified pilot, I’m finding this threat really informative. I find I request a BS for the QNH so that I don’t bust airspace (if it’s different to where I’ve taken off from).

From reading this thread, it seems people prefer to just listen in rather than actively request a BS.

Have I got this right? :D

If you are remaining outside of controlled airspace then you generally don't need to talk to anyone. If you decide that you do need to talk to someone then it behoves and pilot to do so in a way that is succinct. Too often one hears pilots burbling away on the radio in an unstructured over-verbose and sometimes irrelevant stream of consciousness without any apparent purpose, consuming air-time for no apparent reason and potentially preventing more pressing traffic from getting a word in. Maybe they were taught badly; or maybe they just like to talk; or maybe they think, as someone else suggested, that radio waves help keep the aeroplane aloft.

Speaking personally, if I'm flying VFR away from controlled airspace on a local bimble I'll often turn the radio off completely. If I'm flying over somewhere remote or over the water then I'll generally take a Basic Service from someone like London Information on the basis that if something goes wrong then SAR is one mic-press away. If I'm near controlled airspace or I think that someone might want to talk to me I'll use the relevant listening squawk. I only use a Traffic Service if I actually need one, and usually only when in IMC. I only really use a Basic Service as a pre-cursor to requesting a zone transit - because apart from that I really can't see much point to it. So I'd like to think that I keep my 'RT impact' pretty low.

YorkshireMatt wrote:I find I request a BS for the QNH so that I don’t bust airspace (if it’s different to where I’ve taken off from).


It's a very good idea to make sure that you have the current QNH. But of course you don't need a Basic Service in order to obtain the QNH. You can just call them and ask them for the QNH. Again, I think that this is probably an example of poor teaching. An OCAS 'service' in the sense of a Basic Service, Traffic Service etc implies a state of on-going interaction between you and the controller. But you can call up anyone and request the METAR or QNH or DA status or whatever without needing to engage in an on-going interaction. You just say "Bournemouth, this is G-ABCD, requesting QNH." Once they've given it to you they may say something like, "Do you require a Service?" and you just say No. Keep it simple.
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