Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1875606
@Crash one

Im probably being really dense, but I still dont get why you needed to give the same response 3 times to the same question and twig what ATC wanted you to say. The controller should have responded "G-abcd QNH xxxx squawk 1234" - the QNH everyone else is on in that airspace. Why would everyone be on random different QNH settings if talking to the same guy?

I dont think I have ever had ATC talk to me without giving me the QNH for the airspace/FIS area, for eg Aquitaine Info in my local area, even if I already know it from listening out what the Aquitaine QNH is, and said it correctly to them in my call - They STILL respond with the QNH, which you then repeat back. And if ATC had said it on first contact and you didnt repeat it back, they would keep saying it until you do, saying something like "G-abcd confirm QNHxxxx".

And unlike in the test being discussed in this thread where if you dont do something correctly the examiner carries on, it should never be a guessing game in real life, and real ATC will ask you to readback something if you forget to do so for something you must readback - that has happened to me occasionally :oops: .

Regards, SD..
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By Micromouse
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1875612
Ok.

Well the exam turned into a lesson. When you look at the plan and admit that you don’t know one particular bit it’s a bit of a downer, but the lesson was useful and I’ll go back in the next week or so. Did get complemented on making a good decision:-)

W


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By Andrew Sinclair
#1875618
skydriller wrote:@Crash one
And unlike in the test being discussed in this thread where if you dont do something correctly the examiner carries on, it should never be a guessing game in real life, and real ATC will ask you to readback something if you forget to do so for something you must readback.


Good point @skydriller, I certainly aim to make the RTF practical as need real life as possible and requesting readbacks are done correctly and re-done if not correct is quite common during the test and becomes a debrief point at the end.
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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1875620
Having re-read this thread I'm a bit mystified. I only ever get asked for position reports by London Info to whom I very rarely speak.

When I call up I tell them who I am, where I came from, where I'm going to, where I am and my altitude and flight rules. If they want anything else they ask for it.

I reckon the reason for hearing so much carp RT is this bloody exam :roll:
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By Micromouse
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1875621
VRB_20kt wrote:Which bit?

Right from the start. Saw a couple of items in the pre brief and basically said I don’t know. Position requests being the main one. So the Oxford 25 , 2000ft Alton 37 type of things.

Radio has never been my strong point anyway so the extra lesson with a dedicated RT instructor rather than a flying instructor was very useful. Yes I do think the exam does cause a few issues as it is different to day to day RT, but is that because day to day we are lazy?


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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1875627
but is that because day to day we are lazy?


Good question, some folk are rubbish, but the practical reality isn't that difficult and just requires a systematic approach and practice.
By Crash one
#1875629
Andrew Sinclair wrote:
skydriller wrote:@Crash one
And unlike in the test being discussed in this thread where if you dont do something correctly the examiner carries on, it should never be a guessing game in real life, and real ATC will ask you to readback something if you forget to do so for something you must readback.


Good point @skydriller, I certainly aim to make the RTF practical as need real life as possible and requesting readbacks are done correctly and re-done if not correct is quite common during the test and becomes a debrief point at the end.


I don’t understand why people find this hard to believe.
So, to add a bit of detail.
I crossed the Forth river under a basic service from Edinburgh and was given their QNH, I didn’t ask to change freq as I was listening out for other traffic heading to Eshott.
Fifteen or so minutes later I heard another aircraft calling crossing the river on a traffic service.
This is outside controlled airspace.
A few mins later I was asked to report position.
Please don’t blame me for not including their QNH because, as said, they should assume I was on that.
I thought the controller was being unhelpful by not telling me what was missing , which is why I clearly remember the incident from Sep 08.
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1875630
Crash one wrote:I thought the controller was being unhelpful by not telling me what was missing , which is why I clearly remember the incident from Sep 08.


Absolutely not questioning your honesty there @Crash one . Unhelpful is the polite term from what you say - sounds to me like the controller was just being a bit of an ars for the sake of it.

Regards, SD..
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1875763
Micromouse wrote:
VRB_20kt wrote:Which bit?

Right from the start. Saw a couple of items in the pre brief and basically said I don’t know. Position requests being the main one. So the Oxford 25 , 2000ft Alton 37 type of things.

Radio has never been my strong point anyway so the extra lesson with a dedicated RT instructor rather than a flying instructor was very useful. Yes I do think the exam does cause a few issues as it is different to day to day RT, but is that because day to day we are lazy?


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AbbasAir has asked me to hold an RT course on Zoom for their students and 'rusty' or 'feeling exposed' rental pilots on 22nd, only 4 separate sessions spread through the day including a moving map navex demo, with sufficient 'rest' periods so they don't 'zoom-out'. I'm sure they wouldn't shout stranger-danger if you wanted to join in with them
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By T6Harvard
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1875772
@Micromouse , I can recommend Irv's Zoom courses (haven't done this specific one but did one with him last summer, excellent pre-reading, great course. Good luck!
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By Micromouse
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1875773
Irv Lee wrote:
Micromouse wrote:
VRB_20kt wrote:Which bit?

Right from the start. Saw a couple of items in the pre brief and basically said I don’t know. Position requests being the main one. So the Oxford 25 , 2000ft Alton 37 type of things.

Radio has never been my strong point anyway so the extra lesson with a dedicated RT instructor rather than a flying instructor was very useful. Yes I do think the exam does cause a few issues as it is different to day to day RT, but is that because day to day we are lazy?


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AbbasAir has asked me to hold an RT course on Zoom for their students and 'rusty' or 'feeling exposed' rental pilots on 22nd, only 4 separate sessions spread through the day including a moving map navex demo, with sufficient 'rest' periods so they don't 'zoom-out'. I'm sure they wouldn't shout stranger-danger if you wanted to join in with them

Deffo sounds interesting unfortunately I’m working all that Friday to Sunday weekend:-( I’ve got a mock skills ( current have my head buried in flight planning for tomorrow so I might be re evaluating my training after tomorrow)

Wayne


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By flyingearly
#1875850
Things might have changed in the past few years, but could someone clarify something for me: when you're talking about the RT exam, you're talking about FRTOL? Or is there a specific additional exam in the PPL syllabus?

I was NPPL and did my FRTOL in one of those one-day small-group sessions where during the day you cover the theory and - at the end of it - you take the practical test. I came away thinking just how appalling and flimsy the testing regime was, which is why I'm reading this thread and really not recognising some of the stuff here (I want to reply to the OP to say 'relax and don't stress: it's hard to fail...' but I might be misleading them).

When I did it (2019) there was no computer....it was just a group discussion based on a few different scenarios provided. You were given a chart, a few scenarios and had 10 minutes to look over it. Then, we basically had a group discussion where we each took turns to talk through each step in the flight with the examiner (who had run the course during the day) acting as ATC. There was a diversion, uncertain of position and I think that was pretty much it out of the ordinary.

So, pilot 1 did the taxi and departure info call; the next one did the take-off call, next one leaving the circuit and changing frequency and so on.

And at the end of the group conversation he signed you off.

In my group, I was pretty surprised by just how poor the RT was from the other participants - each time they got stuck, the examiner would nudge them and help them out to coax them towards saying the right thing. It was less of a test and more of a group lesson.

Perhaps my experience was very unusual, or perhaps you're talking about a totally different test. Either way, it's always made me think: what's the point of a test if it's not actually going to be testing? This was very much a 'guaranteed pass' for anyone on the course, which is worrying!

To the OP, I don't think it changes the advice: remember you are studying to be a competent pilot, not to be a competent passer of exams. A test pass is really a minimum threshold; my advice would be to speak clearly, slowly and to try and practice (if you can) asking for clarification (say again) - to ensure you've received the information correctly and are not merely responding to what you think you have heard instead.
By archerflyer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1875861
Hi Wayne,

how did the mock skills exam go?

I'm sure you'll be ready for the RT exam after the lesson the other day, but I was wondering, did you not have to do position reports on your cross country flights or other Nav exercises?

Just curious if the ATC varies across the country.
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1875864
@flyingearly
If you name the examiner and course, I suspect there would be an interview with bread and water at Gatwick for your examiner and maybe a new test for you.
(although I think there is a 50-50 chance of me guessing who and where)