Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

Moderator: AndyR

#1867202
All this talk about flying risk and family has reaffirmed my enthusiasm for having some time with an instructor to practise flying in degraded situations. To be clear, I've no plans to fly in IMC, but as we've read: many bad situations began with someone saying the same thing.

So, if I have an NPPL(A) with microlight rating, what options exist?

Am I right to assume that all I can do is book informal time with an instructor that won't 'count' for anything, because IMC rating can't be added to NPPL?

Given that the aircraft I fly is not fitted with instruments for IMC, is it useful to jump in a different aircraft for lessons, or will the two be sufficiently different that anything I practice won't be that relevant?

I'm assuming that there is nothing stopping me booking onto and taking an IMC course, but that at the end of it it will just be an experience, rather than anything formal I can recognise.
Rob P liked this
#1867205
This is a first-rate idea, something everyone should do :thumleft:

Am I right to assume that all I can do is book informal time with an instructor that won't 'count' for anything, because IMC rating can't be added to NPPL?


Of course. Explain what you want and they will be delighted to take your money. Whilst it may not 'count' for anything in rating terms, you do get to put the time in the Instrument Flying column of your logbook.

Given that the aircraft I fly is not fitted with instruments for IMC


You need to explain that a little further. All the instruments you need for the sort of survival training you proposing are an artificial horizon, airspeed indicator, altimeter, direction indicator or compass, turn and bank indicator and a vertical speed indicator - the traditional six-pack. And you can possibly dispense with a couple of those

When I do this I also navigate a SkyDemon route, so the tablet in its usual place on my leg.

I'm assuming that there is nothing stopping me booking onto and taking an IMC course, but that at the end of it it will just be an experience, rather than anything formal I can recognise


The issue with that is that a lot of the IMC course is devoted to holds and instrument approaches. These require a greater instrument fit, so you are forced into an aircraft dissimilar to the one you fly regularly, the one you want to survive in.

Rob P
Last edited by Rob P on Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crash one liked this
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1867206
I recovered from unusual attitudes in IMC on my reval using turn coordinator and altimeter direction is from Skydemon et al
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1867215
Rob P wrote:
Given that the aircraft I fly is not fitted with instruments for IMC


All the instruments you need for the sort of survival training you proposing are an artificial horizon, airspeed indicator, altimeter, direction indicator or compass, turn and bank indicator and a vertical speed indicator - the traditional six-pack.


I'm guessing his microlight doesn't quite have that many!
#1867219
I have no idea. A lot of the microlights I see around have more instrumentation than your average airliner.

Rob P
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By Milty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1867225
I've been thinking similar although still a long way away from even thinking about being PPL qualified, let alone training after that.

I think any further training on how to deal with accidental IMC is a good thing as long as you keep your discipline. I can imagine a potential scenario where the weather is looking a bit marginal but you think 'It's alright, I've done a bit of IMC training and should be able to cope OK if it does go a bit wrong.' I'm not sure that this would be a healthy decision-making process. As long as that can be kept in check, it's definitely something worth considering.

As mentioned, I suspect and school worth their salt would be able to put together a plan for you of the most relevant parts of the syllabus.

I'm not experienced, but I can see the lack of appeal of not intentionally flying IMC in a microlight (hope I've not offended anyone and it's something regularly done - if so, I'll have learned something).
#1867226
If you have the most basic set of instruments anyone flying should be able to execute a rate one, 180 degree turn to (hopefully) get them out of clag.

Without these instruments no amount of training will help you survive

There is a famous cautionary tale - "178 seconds to live" about inadvertent entry into IMC without some basic training.

As one who flew into IMC on their QXC be assured it is possible to survive a little longer*, but worth watching anyway.



Rob P

*34 years so far
By Rjk983
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1867639
Rob P wrote:This is a first-rate idea, something everyone should do :thumleft:

Am I right to assume that all I can do is book informal time with an instructor that won't 'count' for anything, because IMC rating can't be added to NPPL?


Of course. Explain what you want and they will be delighted to take your money. Whilst it may not 'count' for anything in rating terms, you do get to put the time in the Instrument Flying column of your logbook.



and presumably it will also 'count' towards your minimum of 1 hour with an instructor... so is practically free :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Rob P, davenuk liked this
#1868020
Simplest is to do enough to be able to fly on a heading, turn to a heading, climb and descend, all in cloud.

Then if you get stuck in cloud call for help. Try to avoid complex things such as squawk codes and particularly frequency changes. Get someone to vector you to somewhere where you can descend safely.

If you can remain in control in cloud you avoid the 170 seconds from death scenario and you make your navigation someone else's problem.

Don't make a habit of this.
#1868122
Rob P wrote:This is a first-rate idea, something everyone should do :thumleft:

Am I right to assume that all I can do is book informal time with an instructor that won't 'count' for anything, because IMC rating can't be added to NPPL?


Of course. Explain what you want and they will be delighted to take your money. Whilst it may not 'count' for anything in rating terms, you do get to put the time in the Instrument Flying column of your logbook.

Given that the aircraft I fly is not fitted with instruments for IMC


You need to explain that a little further. All the instruments you need for the sort of survival training you proposing are an artificial horizon, airspeed indicator, altimeter, direction indicator or compass, turn and bank indicator and a vertical speed indicator - the traditional six-pack. And you can possibly dispense with a couple of those

When I do this I also navigate a SkyDemon route, so the tablet in its usual place on my leg.

I'm assuming that there is nothing stopping me booking onto and taking an IMC course, but that at the end of it it will just be an experience, rather than anything formal I can recognise


The issue with that is that a lot of the IMC course is devoted to holds and instrument approaches. These require a greater instrument fit, so you are forced into an aircraft dissimilar to the one you fly regularly, the one you want to survive in.

Rob P


I think this is the best answer so far.
All you need to train for is recovery from unusual attitudes, maintaining course speed and straight and level whilst blind.
Holds and approaches and VFR procedures are not necessary.
I did this with a retired, lapsed instructor on my NPPL and still do whenever possible.
The knowledge/capability is far more use than a piece of paper with a signature on it!
#1868135
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
Rob P wrote:
Given that the aircraft I fly is not fitted with instruments for IMC


All the instruments you need for the sort of survival training you proposing are an artificial horizon, airspeed indicator, altimeter, direction indicator or compass, turn and bank indicator and a vertical speed indicator - the traditional six-pack.


I'm guessing his microlight doesn't quite have that many!


You're in luck - I have the complete set :) - but not much more than that I'm afraid!

Thanks for responses so far - I've been away for a few days so have only just seen them.

Is it as simple as finding an instructor on the aircraft I fly and spending some time with the foggles on, or do I need to do it on a different aircraft to my microlight (Zenair 601)?
#1868207
flyingearly wrote:Is it as simple as finding an instructor on the aircraft I fly and spending some time with the foggles on?


It's that simple. :D

Rob P
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1868282
Rob P wrote:
flyingearly wrote:Is it as simple as finding an instructor on the aircraft I fly and spending some time with the foggles on?


It's that simple. :D

It is that simple to get the training.... and very well worthwhile.

However, I'd strongly recommend ensuring that you get some time with the instructor in actual cloud as well as with foggles.

Foggles allow a small amount of peripheral vision (mostly at the bottom), which, if you're not in cloud, makes it very much easier than when there's no external reference point at all.

If you get into cloud having only practised with foggles, especially if there's any turbulence, you'll be surprised how much harder it is.
#1868286
Is the concept of "safety pilot" not a thing for NPPL? I have an EASA PPL and it happens that I bring a friend to be my safety pilot while I wear foggles to practice. Under those rules, the safety pilot doesn't need to an instructor, only a qualified PPL.

But that's if one wants to practice. To learn, you'd need an instructor or a CRI.

Edit: a safety pilot is of course only possible in VMC with the pilot wearing foggles.
Last edited by akg1486 on Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.