Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

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By David Wood
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1864409
Rob P wrote:And always remember, partial engine failure kills more people than the engine stopping dead.

Treat partial as total and you will probably survive, trying to make it to the nearest aerodrome or whatever can be a killer.

Rob P


I agree with the first part, it's sadly true. But I'm afraid that I don't agree with the sentiment of the second part of that.

Responding to a partial is more complicated than responding to a full engine failure, precisely because there are more variables and more options. But simply discarding all the options and treating a partial as a full is not the right answer, in my view.

As an aside, teaching students how to deal with partial engine failure is often poorly done, and yet is very important. Nowadays when I do an LPC or indeed a 'one hour with an FI' flight I invariably throw in a partial engine failure and ask the student/candidate to consider what he would do. It makes for very useful post-flight debriefing.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1864411
David Wood wrote:Nowadays when I do an LPC or indeed a 'one hour with an FI' flight I invariably throw in a partial engine failure and ask the student/candidate to consider what he would do. It makes for very useful post-flight debriefing.

How do you do that?

I can feel some thinking coming on :)
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1864412
A4 Pacific wrote:As for checklists in a single pilot a/c I would say it’s a great idea, time permitting, to refer to a checklist after you have run through any memory items, to check you haven’t missed anything. That’s what they’re for.

Ok. Once I'm safely into my field and my pulse rate has dropped below 140, I'll get them out and make sure I haven't forgotten anything :thumright:
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1864414
David Wood wrote:So the first part of the correct response to the examiner's question. "So Bloggs, what would you do if that red light came on?" would be to correctly identify it as (in this example) the Alternator Failure Light and reply, "I would get out my checklist," and then work through it.

Jeez, has it really come to this?

It seems to me that the emphasis has shifted completely away from teaching, learning, understanding, acquiring knowledge, and thus becoming able to make good judgements and sound decisions, to examining people's ability to tick boxes.

In a complex turboprop, with god-knows how many sophisticated warning systems, readouts, warning bells, buzzers and lights, I completely get this approach.

But this is the student forum. What kind of pilot are we breeding these days?
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By leiafee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1864423
Back to the OP, I can almost promise that in a single pilot light aircraft you won't WANT to look at a checklist when it happens for real anyway.

You'll want to look at your field and your airspeed and it will in actual fact be emotionally and mentally extremely hard to drag your attention to anything else, even even to memory items which you can find by touch.

The existence of a paper checklist will not feel nearly as comforting as it probably feels in training.
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By A4 Pacific
#1864432
Ok. Once I'm safely into my field and my pulse rate has dropped below 140, I'll get them out and make sure I haven't forgotten anything :thumright:


Really?

I had you down as another Chuck Yeager. Running checks whilst zooming and booming? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Many decades of 16 hours per year running through emergencies in FFSs has shown me most ways these situations can kill. I’ve even tried many myself!

They’re all just aeroplanes, with a fallible human at the controls. It tends to be the human, rather than the aeroplane that is the common problematic factor.

My suggestions are based on that.

I highly recommend this recent video that I highlighted elsewhere. It’s called “top ten things pilots should know, with Jason Miller”

I believe he may mention checklists whilst single pilot?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FOBTWf2r2CU
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By David Wood
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1864460
TopCat wrote:
David Wood wrote:Nowadays when I do an LPC or indeed a 'one hour with an FI' flight I invariably throw in a partial engine failure and ask the student/candidate to consider what he would do. It makes for very useful post-flight debriefing.

How do you do that?

I can feel some thinking coming on :)

I reduce the power to something like 50% and explain that the engine is running roughly but there is no sign of fire (yet). I then ask them to make a plan and carry it out....
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By David Wood
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1864461
TopCat wrote:
David Wood wrote:So the first part of the correct response to the examiner's question. "So Bloggs, what would you do if that red light came on?" would be to correctly identify it as (in this example) the Alternator Failure Light and reply, "I would get out my checklist," and then work through it.

Jeez, has it really come to this?

It seems to me that the emphasis has shifted completely away from teaching, learning, understanding, acquiring knowledge, and thus becoming able to make good judgements and sound decisions, to examining people's ability to tick boxes.

In a complex turboprop, with god-knows how many sophisticated warning systems, readouts, warning bells, buzzers and lights, I completely get this approach.

But this is the student forum. What kind of pilot are we breeding these days?


I think that's a little harsh.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1864465
David Wood wrote:
TopCat wrote:
David Wood wrote:So the first part of the correct response to the examiner's question. "So Bloggs, what would you do if that red light came on?" would be to correctly identify it as (in this example) the Alternator Failure Light and reply, "I would get out my checklist," and then work through it.

Jeez, has it really come to this?

It seems to me that the emphasis has shifted completely away from teaching, learning, understanding, acquiring knowledge, and thus becoming able to make good judgements and sound decisions, to examining people's ability to tick boxes.

In a complex turboprop, with god-knows how many sophisticated warning systems, readouts, warning bells, buzzers and lights, I completely get this approach.

But this is the student forum. What kind of pilot are we breeding these days?


I think that's a little harsh.

Really? Are you suggesting it's acceptable for a pilot not to know what to do if the alternator fails without a checklist?
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By David Wood
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1864477
What I'm suggesting is that it's important to ascertain that he knows where the information is so that if he doesn't know (or, more likely, in the stress of the moment he simply forgets) then he has the wherewithall to work his way through a problem rather than grasping at half-remembered drills or facts.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1864484
David Wood wrote:What I'm suggesting is that it's important to ascertain that he knows where the information is so that if he doesn't know (or, more likely, in the stress of the moment he simply forgets) then he has the wherewithall to work his way through a problem rather than grasping at half-remembered drills or facts.

Well I don't disagree with that. But you didn't say that. You said:

David Wood wrote:So the first part of the correct response to the examiner's question. "So Bloggs, what would you do if that red light came on?" would be to correctly identify it as (in this example) the Alternator Failure Light and reply, "I would get out my checklist," and then work through it.

Which suggested to me that you thought a checklist is the correct response to an alternator failure.

I still think, harsh or not, it's a terrible mindset to be giving student pilots who are learning to fly simple aeroplanes.

You've got loads of time with an alternator failure, so taking this as a representative example is going to lull people into a false sense of security.

Buggering about with a checklist when you notice a rapidly rising oil temperature and falling oil pressure is a much more serious waste of time, when you should bloody well know what it means without one.

Obviously if you don't know, you have no alternative to the checklist. But in that case, you shouldn't be flying, and in all probability, in a few minutes' time, you won't be.
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By David Wood
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1864529
Maybe I should have said 'a' correct response. Let's not get wrapped around the axle on a point of gramatical detail. The fact remains that checklists, aide memoires, nemonics and so on all have a role in flight safety. The OP's question was whether or not it is acceptable to have checklists printed out (as opposed to memorised, I guess). My point was that whilst, when examining, I expect some checks to be memorised I also expect the candidate to know where to find the checks and/or drills that either he may not have memorised or cannot in the heat of the moment recall. I wasn't suggesting for one moment that waving the checklist about is the response to a problem - simply that it may be part of the solution in so far as it may help the pilot diagnose and resolve the issue.
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1864737
Dman wrote:Is it acceptable to have your checklists printed out in front of you when doing your GST
Thinking along the lines of PFL checks being printed on back of log sheets on kneeboard , so when the inevitable happens and examiner pulls throttle back i can just flip sheet over and read through checks.
Struggling to remember everything, which I am sure will be worse while doing gst
I already have a checksheet for Start up, Power Checks Shut down etc.


Reading any checklist whilst flying a PFL is likely to fail your skill test!

G
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1864755
David Wood wrote:Let's not get wrapped around the axle on a point of grammatical detail.

Very much agree.

So, to be specific... as the OP asked:

Dman wrote:Is it acceptable to have your checklists printed out in front of you when doing your GST
Thinking along the lines of PFL checks being printed on back of log sheets on kneeboard , so when the inevitable happens and examiner pulls throttle back i can just flip sheet over and read through checks.
Struggling to remember everything, which I am sure will be worse while doing gst
I already have a checksheet for Start up, Power Checks Shut down etc.

Specifically, do you, as an examiner/instructor, agree with referring to printed checklists during a PFL on a PPL skills test?

Because much as I often agree with what you post, I really don't see how
The fact remains that checklists, aide memoires, mnemonics and so on all have a role in flight safety. The OP's question was whether or not it is acceptable to have checklists printed out (as opposed to memorised, I guess). My point was that whilst, when examining, I expect some checks to be memorised I also expect the candidate to know where to find the checks and/or drills that either he may not have memorised or cannot in the heat of the moment recall. I wasn't suggesting for one moment that waving the checklist about is the response to a problem - simply that it may be part of the solution in so far as it may help the pilot diagnose and resolve the issue.

.... answers the question at all! Seems a bit 'sitting on the fence', if I might suggest such a thing.

Personally, I think it's a terrible idea, straight out of 'Mr Bean goes for a flight test'.

But what do I know, I'm neither an instructor or an examiner.
By A4 Pacific
#1864761
Reading any checklist whilst flying a PFL is likely to fail your skill test!


Why?

If I fly a perfect PFL and have referred to a checklist on the way down, why would I fail??
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