Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1907078
T6Harvard wrote:Speed on Final in a 152 is 65kt, flaps 30.
I've only come in faster in strong xw, then max 70kt.

Always compare the recommended speed with the stall speed, so that you also know what your margin actually is. 65 must be about 20 knots above the stall in a C152? That's still quite a big margin.

For comparison, my Grumman stalls at 53 at max weight with full flap, and the normal approach speed in the book is 65, with a short field speed of 61.

At the weights I typically fly it, the stall speed will be two or three knots below the max weight values, so those speeds can come down a bit more.

Just to be clear, I wouldn't necessarily fly the whole final leg at those speeds (although I could); usually I'd be quite a bit faster. But I'm always aiming for coming over the hedge as if I had.
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By Milty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1907079
Most of my 'standard' landings have been with 2 stages of flap which I think is flaps 20.

As I say, I think the instructor has tended to err on the side of caution and not overcomplicate things too much, e.g. 70kts is OK for a x-wind landing and no puppies will die if you do that on a more still day, then he's kept things simple for me. I think he's a 'functional' kind of instructor. Get the basics that really matter right first, then we can finesse later. Potential issue is that you get into bad habits this way, but so far, I'm happy enough with what I'm being taught and how.

Don't misinterpret this comment as being a bit 'sulky teenager' - I enjoy the detail too, but when it really matters. At the moment, if every one of my future landings was as smooth as my last one today without a stall warner, I think I'd die a happy pilot.
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By VRB_20kt
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1907082
If you can nail 65kt on slope then that’s fine. You can finesse matters once you really have the basics mastered.

Personally I would argue against increasing speed for a crosswind since that will potentially expose you to a longer float when you least want it.

Increased speed in strong gusty headwinds makes sense since it preserves your margin over the stall but still leaves you with a small landing energy.
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1907084
Milty wrote:At the moment, if every one of my future landings was as smooth as my last one today without a stall warner, I think I'd die a happy pilot.

Not if you end up in the hedge at the end of that short runway you were too fast for, you won't :D

I do understand where you're coming from. But the risk is that you'll pass your skills test with only a little bit of short field landing practice - and that not at an actual short field.

Then you'll get caught up in going places and having fun, the short field practice and slow flight lessons will be a distant memory, and before you know it you'll be in the habit of landing half way down runways, needing a lot more brake than you should do.

And then one day you'll discover what wet grass with no braking is like.
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By Milty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1907087
@TopCat Agreed and understood.

We did do a bit of 'focus' on getting down on the early side when we flew into Shobdon recently. No drama there.

I'm a fairly risk-averse sort of bloke (you couldn't possibly know that). I've made it clear to my instructor that I want to do some short field, grass landings as part of my instruction and he's agreed. I don't care if it's as part of the PPL or after, but I certainly won't be planning on any stupid decisions. I do get your point about getting caught up in the fun of it though.

When you read about me in an AIIB report, I give you full permission to contact me and tell me you told me so :D . Hope it will have been trivial enough that I can graciously reply.
By ericgreveson
#1907100
Really enjoyed reading that report and the subsequent discussion! Must be a great feeling to head across country and land away from your home airfield by yourself. I need to take a leaf out of your book and spend more time doing things like spotting PFL fields while enroute, I can easily get lulled into "maintaining a lookout" and spotting nav features since that's less work...

Interested to see the different ways we're all being taught to fly the same aeroplane. Regarding C152 speeds, I have always been told to maintain 70kts turning base to final, then 30 degrees of flap (normally) and 65kts on final like @T6Harvard. If I'm any faster than that, I get told off! If making a flapless approach, then 70kts on final is what I've been told - and if making a short-field landing, 60kts on final. I think these speeds all give a bit of "buffer zone" over the POH though - my checklist from the school (including speeds etc) appears to have been lifted directly from the POH word for word, which is handy - and the speeds in there are typically 5kt slower than what I've been taught (although given as a range typically, e.g. "normal approach, flaps 30" is 55-65kt. Short field approach speed is 54kt in the POH! I think the stall speeds are 43kt flaps down and 45kt flaps up. Of course, this is for "our" 152s (early 1980's I think), but I guess yours is likely to be similar / the same...

Regarding the stall warner, I wish I was accurate enough so that I could touch down with the stall warner sounding every time, but I think it's more like 50/50 at the moment! In a strong headwind in the C152 I guess you might be touching down around 35kt groundspeed which seems crazy slow...!
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1907101
Milty wrote:I'm a fairly risk-averse sort of bloke (you couldn't possibly know that).

Hey, don't feel the need to justify anything. I'm not having a go.

Just putting a possible scenario together for your consideration.

Remember, I'm just some guy on the internet!

But if my ramblings somehow give you and others enough food for thought to prevent you becoming one of a very large number of pilots that routinely land flat, fast, and can't get into a shortish field without setting the brakes on fire and needing a change of underpants, I'll die a happy pilot too :)
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By Milty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1907103
@TopCat the delight of the written word. I didn’t think you were having a go. Far from it and find your contributions useful and thought provoking as you intend (it may well been one of your comments about if bored in the air, you’ve forgotten to do something).
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By Milty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1907106
@ericgreveson great info on your experience. Thanks for that.

Interesting as you say that we’re all taught a bit differently (or maybe we interpret a bit differently - it’s entirely possible that my instructor has told me something that I inadvertently tuned out).

Your comment on 50/50 stall warning landings indicates I need to work on it. Purely from memory, I’d say I’m 2 from about 120.
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1907138
Milty wrote:Your comment on 50/50 stall warning landings indicates I need to work on it. Purely from memory, I’d say I’m 2 from about 120.

Blimey. In 30 years and 1200 hours ish, I've been too fast a few times. Maybe ten I haven't had the stall warner blaring.

The fuse had bust for some of those.

Hold it off, people.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1907139
... by the way... I'm just lucky. I had an instructor that would sit there, dead pan.

If I did an ok landing, he'd say "well you got it down".

If I did a really good one, he'd say "you could have held it off longer".

And when I flew with him a few years ago, for the first time in well over 20 years, he said "well you're better than you were".

He was quite hard to please. But you know what? I'm grateful. And I was absolutely chuffed to bits to have him at my wedding last September, 30 years almost to the day since I first knew him.
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By Mz Hedy
#1907185
TopCat wrote:...
And then one day you'll discover what wet grass with no braking is like.

I remember being told by an experienced instructor long ago that "the wings make better brakes than the wheels do", especially when landing on grass, but it's quite right that the wings at high AoA are pretty draggy things. Touch down as slowly as you can and keep the nose up in the ground roll - I've never had a nose-wheel aircraft fall back onto its tail after landing

Cue anecdotes. :D
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