Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1882446
johnm wrote:As long as there's a stable final approach, how you got there is of no consequence whatsoever....circuit bashing has some merit in getting the procedural aspects and accurate flying sorted out though it also has merit in providing a framework for practicing take off and landing without wasting too much time in the air :-)

For students, the circuit is a formulaic, repeatable way of getting to that stabilised final approach. Once you have more experience, how you got there becomes increasingly irrelevant as you say.

Personally, I extend the argument further, as I think it can be equally applied to the stabilised approach - at least for visual flying (for instrument approaches I completely understand the importance of a stabilised approach). But that's possibly a bridge too far for the student forum.
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By lobstaboy
#1882466
TopCat wrote:But this "good landings have to come from good circuits and good approaches" mantra - when taken to extremes -

maniacal insistence on a perfect circuit before landings were permitted to be even attempted. Which completely trashed the student's progress and dented confidence massively. It was a tribute to that student's resilience that they didn't give up completely.
)


Of course a good landing can come from a poor circuit and approach (you've snuck in the words "have to"). As you rightly point out if your speed and height are good and your brain is still in front of the aeroplane at the start of the landing then all should be well.
But (and it's a big "but" not just for students, but for folk who manage a few tens of hours a year, say) by far the most reliable way to arrive at that point at the right height and speed and your brain in good shape is to have concentrated on doing a good circuit and approach.
This isn't just about physics. It's about mental state as well.

You know we agree on the ludicrousness of insisting on a perfect circuit before landings are even attempted. But it is ok to insist on the circuit and approach being good enough - the level of instructor involvement in making sure that happens can be whatever is needed. In other words it's ok to prompt or even assist in the circuit and approach if you want a student to have a go on their own at landing - there's nothing like being able to say, " there you are, a perfect landing and I didn't touch the controls once" to boost confidence.

PS I'll also add that the concept of a "stable approach" isn't that helpful for PPL students. What does it mean anyway?

And for the students reading this,
- don't pay too much attention to what you read on the internet. Pay attention to your instructor
- remember that your instructor is also laying the groundwork for you to make decisions like electing to go around when you're not happy with the approach (they don't want you thinking "this isn't right but I can get it back in time")
- and flying good repeatable circuits and knowing what they look like, well as being good handling practice, is also the groundwork for doing a good job when you first visit other airfields, and when you do forced landings - practice and real, engine out and with power).
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1882505
lobstaboy wrote:
TopCat wrote:But this "good landings have to come from good circuits and good approaches" mantra - when taken to extremes -

Of course a good landing can come from a poor circuit and approach (you've snuck in the words "have to").

Well not really... you did say that the saying was...
lobstaboy wrote:Pedantic instructor mode (as always)
Think of the saying as being, "A good circuit and approach are necessary, although not always sufficient, for a good landing."

I agree with the rest, as I'm sure you realise, though I'm surprised you added this bit:
PS I'll also add that the concept of a "stable approach" isn't that helpful for PPL students. What does it mean anyway?

Not that I disagree with it at all. That's potentially two of us for burning at the stake.

and flying good repeatable circuits and knowing what they look like, well as being good handling practice, is also the groundwork for doing a good job when you first visit other airfields

Certainly this, yes.. ^^

, and when you do forced landings - practice and real, engine out .

But not so much this ^^. Unless the good repeatable circuits include lots of glide approaches.
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By lobstaboy
#1882515
TopCat wrote:
, and when you do forced landings - practice and real, engine out .

But not so much this ^^. Unless the good repeatable circuits include lots of glide approaches.


Which they absolutely should.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1882561
lobstaboy wrote:
TopCat wrote:
, and when you do forced landings - practice and real, engine out .

But not so much this ^^. Unless the good repeatable circuits include lots of glide approaches.

Which they absolutely should.

Before anyone else gets in first, we should get a room.
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By Milty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1882572
Cessna571 wrote:@Milty

btw,

I wasn’t implying your post wasn’t correct, I was just saying 16 across in a 152 is sporting!

Most I was ever allowed as a student was 12 across.


No issue from my side. Your comment was asking to check the winds. My reply confirmed them, maybe a little clumsily with an unintended inference of umbrage on my part. The joys of the written word without the context of verbal tone and body language. :thumleft:

@TopCat @lobstaboy yes you should :lol: Thank you both for your input and if it’s a general topic worth expanding on, feel free to take it up in a new thread. :thumleft:
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By Milty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1883086
Starting to settle into the vagueness of flying lessons now as a hobby. Had 3 weeks between lessons, then now had 2 in 5 days :D . Great for the smile, bad for the bank balance...

After last weeks crosswinds, things were a lot more sedate today. 3-4kts and only just off the runway so very sedate in comparison.

As is becoming a habit now, it took a couple of circuits and a nudge from the instructor to get height and RT calls correct but then all pretty straightforward... apart from still struggling to line up correctly with the runway. I'm still consistently over to the left but it looks like it should be OK in my head. Then it becomes clear that it's not OK and the instructor is encouraging me to go right but it looks wrong to me. So, I duly go right a bit, but because it looks wrong, I correct to bring it left by dropping the wing, then have to snake right at the last minute and we end up generally landing on a bit of an angle. The last 200ft is just a bit of a dogs dinner. On a positive, I'm consistent and dropped the left wing a bit on every one of the first 6 landings - just got to get consistently better.

But on the 7th, I seemed to get it better and then just replicated the picture on the 8th which was apparently, the best I have ever done. Bang on centreline, mains first, nosewheel down gently and all as smooth as a baby's backside. So, now all I have to do is repeat 3 in a row and we'll be good to go solo apparently (for the benefit of clarification of the written word, I am well aware that this is no mean feat). Mildly annoying that I left it to the last one but at least I got one in and finished on a high.

Was planning on giving air law and ops proc a go after the lesson too but my CAA registration has not completed yet so I couldn't do it. Partially my bad - I've already registed on the portal for my medical and got that all sorted. I hadn't realised that I have to register for exams until last Friday. I did that, then last night it allowed me to pick the flying school but I found out this morning that the next step can take up to 10 days. Don't really understand why, but I thought I'd pop it on here in case other students don't realise too.

So, that's 12 lessons, 13.5 hours and trucking along nicely as far as I'm concerned.

Next lesson booked for Thursday next week. Bit more circuit bashing and maybe a quick flight over to Kemble as the primary diversion airfield for Gloucester just in case there was an issue with Gloucester when I do hopefully go solo. I should at least be a bit familiar with how to get to and land at Kemble on my own should the need arise.
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By VRB_20kt
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1883101
You may be surprised to know that you're far from alone in finding it hard to fly along the extended centreline. I think it may be because we sit to the left and our brain wants us to put the line on the right. The correct view all the way down final is exactly in line. Make no allowance for where you're sitting at all. If you're spot on, you will land maybe a foot to the right of the centreline but you won't have any faffing about trying to fix things in the last couple of hundred feet. In due course you'll sort out that foot.

My "rule" on landing is to fix things as soon as possible during the approach so that you free up brain space to get the round-out and flare right.
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1883102
Gloucester and Kemble have hard runways, of course, but at many grass fields there's either no centre line, or if there is it's dotted, and quite indented as whatever they paint them with kills the grass locally, so if you land exactly on it, the nose leg will bump through the ruts when you lower it to the ground.

Likewise sometimes the surface is often much better a bit off to the side rather than in the centre, and there are fields where they ask you explicitly to stay off the centre line so that they don't have to repaint it as often.

It till take a little time, but aim to develop the ability to land exactly where you want to. Not necessarily on the centre, but left of or right of, at your choice.
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By lobstaboy
#1883103
VRB_20kt wrote:You may be surprised to know that you're far from alone in finding it hard to fly along the extended centreline. I think it may be because we sit to the left and our brain wants us to put the line on the right. The correct view all the way down final is exactly in line. Make no allowance for where you're sitting at all.


Yes, the runway centreline should look as if it goes straight between your knees (except if you're doing a crabbed approach in a cross wind)

ATC to BA flight on the ILS, " BA 123 you are a little to the left of the centreline."
"That's OK, my first officer is a little to the right of it."

(An oldie but goodie)
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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1883104
In flying instruments or at night the centreline is important and it's good practice to land with nose wheel on it, and track it that way too, but in some places taxiing is bumpy because of lights or cat's eyes on the centre line so a little left or right is better.

On grass it's more important to find the smooth(ish) bit :D
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By VRB_20kt
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1883106
johnm wrote:In flying instruments or at night the centreline is important ...


I wish i could fly down the extended centreline on instruments +/- quite a lot seems to be the best I can manage!!! :roll:
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1883109
VRB_20kt wrote:
johnm wrote:In flying instruments or at night the centreline is important ...


I wish i could fly down the extended centreline on instruments +/- quite a lot seems to be the best I can manage!!! :roll:


You need an autopilot :-)
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1883116
VRB_20kt wrote:If you're spot on, you will land maybe a foot to the right of the centreline

:shock:
Oh dear... :( I am never spot on then because I always seem to land left of the line, even if only a smidge. Its a running joke with my GF/Partner who harks on about it being because brits drive on the left... :eye:
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