Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

Moderator: AndyR

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By B737
#1862041
Hi all,

Just wanted to confirm if this would be correct for an overhead join, I see many examples of overhead joins inbound from the live side but none from the dead side. This is what I would normally do.

Blue indicates where I would overfly the airfield at 1,000ft above circuit height.

Red indicates where I would initiate my descent to circuit height.

Green indicates where I maintain circuit height and proceed with the normal landing procedure.

Thanks in advance!

Image
#1862065
That would work. You can initiate your descent as soon as you have passed over the threshold, but delaying as you have drawn will kill no puppies.

Rob P
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1862077
You would be expected to start the descent passing the landing end, if anyone is following you to join, and you delayed the descent too much, they could be confused and decide you were actually just turning overhead. If so , and if they started to descend at the normal place, that could bring a conflict as you both meet at circuit height about to cross to the live side.
If I understand the diagram, aren't you in danger of someone climbing up into you on the crosswind leg on the live side? Circuit traffic taking off often doesnt teach circuit height until shortly before the downwind leg, hence the post-overhead join crosswind leg should normally be tight in to the upwind end of the runway
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1862115
@Flyin'Dutch' no, quite the opposite, someone doing something that isn't a standard overhead join is going to confuse others if a standard one is expected there.
There are some awful practices that creep in that cause unnecessary confusion, for example calling long final when pushed a tiny bit further out than normal, calling downwind when still crosswind had a growth spurt a few years ago, we had someone years ago been taught to orbit when told to in a (controlled) circuit with 4 x 30 second straight lines in a square rather than a level rateone turn - it would confuse the heck out of me if I was orbiting earlier on the downwind and caught sight of the guy further along the leg aiming at me with wings level rather than being in a constant turn! Equally, if someone ahead of me whom I thought was doing a standard overhead join kept s/l for a long way beyond the descent point, I would be confused, and if I had previously heard a radio call suggesting someone was doing intending to do one, I would get very worried about where that aircraft that I had heard actually was, as i would fast be coming to the conclusion that it was unlikely to be the one I was watching fly away from the airfield without descending.
Full Marks to the OP though for asking.
By B737
#1862116
Irv Lee wrote:You would be expected to start the descent passing the landing end, if anyone is following you to join, and you delayed the descent too much, they could be confused and decide you were actually just turning overhead. If so , and if they started to descend at the normal place, that could bring a conflict as you both meet at circuit height about to cross to the live side.
If I understand the diagram, aren't you in danger of someone climbing up into you on the crosswind leg on the live side? Circuit traffic taking off often doesnt teach circuit height until shortly before the downwind leg, hence the post-overhead join crosswind leg should normally be tight in to the upwind end of the runway


So from what I understand, I should start my descent after passing the runway threshold and continue the descent all the way until circuit height, then begin my turn onto the live side earlier so as to join mid-downwind?
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1862118
No not mid downwind, more or less at the point of the downwind leg beam the upwind end of tbe runway. Best thing to do is see the diagram on page 102 of http://www.caa.co.uk/CAP1535P - it will show the immediate descent at the start and the tight-in crosswind to let traffic taking off pass under you.
I have some tips on overhead joins that I send out as "extra tips" for that part of my Zoom radio/airspace course, (next one later next week), I will send you a copy
#1862119
Have you seen this diagram? https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga ... rJan09.pdf

You asked specifically about joining overhead when arriving from the south for runway 09, and this diagram doesn't specifically show that scenario. But in both that case, and in this diagram from the CAA, you do exactly the same thing once you begin your descent.

"Mid-downwind" is a confusing term for me, since the "downwind" call is made when abeam the 27 numbers and not earlier, but at that point you should be fully integrated into circuit traffic.

See also CAP 413 Chapter 4 which also has a good diagram: https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CA ... ov2020.pdf
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1862120
Irv Lee wrote:Full Marks to the OP though for asking.


Always!

As you know, I am always bemused by the amount of pages required to explain the OHJ and discussions for something that by its proponents is 'easy' and 'brilliant' (not you personally!)

Similar discussions are just absent from forums which serve similar communities in other parts of the world.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1862135
Like most aspects of UK procedures OHJ implies a biplane at 50 KIAS with no radio flying over the airfield to spot the signal square and then lining up to join the circuit, like RPS and QFE it's an RFC anachronism we ought to be getting rid of.

That said the picture drawn by the original poster is over complicated and as Irv pointed out a curving descent from the 09 threshold to the upwind numbers would be better and then a merge onto the down wind leg as shown
#1862148
I know @Adrians Krauklis is going to end up sorry that he asked this at all, but I'd counsel him to bear with it as he has set foot in the minefield that is the OHJ controversy.

I am guessing that the reason his crosswind leg isn't over the numbers is the helpful pink arrow on the chart indicating the preferred circuit.

If he were to fly his crosswind leg over the numbers surely he runs the risk of cutting-in on the hapless student flying that circuit? Adrian is required to conform to the established circuit, this is what he is doing his best to achieve

Personally I would overfly the numbers, but I have sufficient spare performance to open up a bit of space on the downwind if needed. He may not.

Nice to see an airfield promoting the curved approach rather than the rectangle. Top marks to Perth for this. Points lost for requiring an OHJ :D

Rob P

Edit: Some of the above is bollox. The pink and magenta arrows don't appear on the SD chart as it displays, I'd assume these are SD's suggestions when using the helpful hints for joining,not the airfields preference.

Adrian. Crown Green Bowls is a simpler pastime : :lol:
#1862158
Miscellaneous wrote:Is this not just how Sky Demon depicts all circuits? :wink:


Already edited (see above). It's not an SD feature I use.

Rob P
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