[rogerb]

Further to the above I am on occasion surprised at the inability of some to fly a standard circuit.
Wind allowance, height and extending downwind etc.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Haha. That., my friend, is a whole new chapter!

[TopCat]

I have been known to do an overhead join and I learned at White Waltham so was well practiced, but I still find them more useless than a really useless thing in terms of situational awareness.

Well I still don't understand why - you can see the whole circuit from the overhead, and any displaced threshold, obstructions, or other runway oddities that otherwise you couldn't possibly see until final.

Sequencing traffic onto downwind has always made more sense to me

Based solely on people's radio calls?

and the 45 degree angle

which is often illegal, as I say...

allows a check for conflict with crosswind traffic.

But not all the other traffic descending into the downwind.

Legality notwithstanding, if you're on your 45° line and there's one on crosswind and one ahead already downwind, then what? Are you going to turn in the opposite direction to the downwind leg, and then back again to slot in behind the crosswind guy as he goes downwind? You don't think that would be a bit confusing to other people joining? Quite apart from the conflict with someone else whose idea of the 45° line is a bit further upwind than yours.

What about the noise abatement areas that are getting more and more common and could make this even more complicated?

Whereas if you're in the overhead all you have to do is go round the roundabout one more time.

Each to his own I suppose, but I just don't get it.

[johnm]

Instrument approaches is the answer RNP especially

[TopCat]

Never understood why people don't like it.

1. It is poorly understood by many people despite it, apparently, being simple. .....
2. It is poorly implemented in every day flying practise, see above and again at any aerodrome;

Certainly true, but it's not obvious to me that other joins are implemented well. Plenty of times I've joined downwind and had to avoid somebody else joining on a wider downwind. Occasionally on base I've met someone on base in the opposite circuit direction. Crosswind joins are flown all kinds of arbitrary distances from the upwind end of the runway.

There's scope for conflict in all of these cases, and as circuit size is often not standardised, neither will people's choice of exactly where they're going to join.

At least the overhead join is well defined, so there is at least scope for education.

3. It creates a honey pot above the airfield leading to the potential of a mid air collision;

True to an extent, but no more so than the honeypot of the downwind leg. If two or three aircraft are all approaching an uncontrolled field intending to join downwind, I feel much less safe than if I'm joining overhead, as I find them much harder to see closer to the ground and not yet necessarily at circuit height.

At least the overhead should contain aircraft at the same altitude, so seeing them will not require picking aircraft out of background clutter on the ground.

4. It requires turning in a potentially busy piece of airspace (see 3) where people are trying to work out what they need to do; the turning reducing the pilots view out of the window blanketed by pieces of wings;

Again true, but no more so than mitigating that risk by looking out before turning downwind or base.

5. It is less efficient than any other form of joining, as time required and that extra time is spent in the busiest bit of airspace of the flight, near the aerodrome - which is where the most mid air collisions happen statistically.

This is true if joining from any leg is available, but not if the standard airfield join is downwind. If you're coming from the wrong side of the circuit, you have to fly all the way round the airfield well clear of the circuit in order to then join downwind.

6. It is not something non-Brit pilots are familiar with making them joining a more difficult and non-standard thing.

Yes, I agree with that, certainly.

As I say, each to his own, and like you, I'm perfectly capable of joining other than overhead if necessary, but the extra minute in the overhead isn't enough to stop me preferring the OHJ.

[Flyin'Dutch']

@TopCat

Thanks for your analysis of my arguments!

Alas as you did not manage to bring something which convinced me that the OHJ is better I will continue to dislike it with a passion.

Who said passion was dead!

[TopCat]

@TopCat

Thanks for your analysis of my arguments!

Always a pleasure...

Alas as you did not manage to bring something which convinced me that the OHJ is better I will continue to dislike it with a passion.

That's ok, I shall be able to see you clearly from the overhead when you join downwind and I'll make sure I slow down nicely behind you so as not to cut you up...

[AndyR]

Posts made as part of a mud slinging exercise will be deleted (and have been) from ALL those concerned.

Revisit the Student Forum rules, or just don’t post at all.

[Rob P]

If you're coming from the wrong side of the circuit, you have to fly all the way round the airfield well clear of the circuit in order to then join downwind.

I don't see why this should be a problem. Surely we all plan our arrival taking this sort of thing into account?

Just put me in the "I'll do OHJ only where I absolutely have no choice" camp

Rob P

[Hangar16]

The potential for conflict that worries me is that between the overhead joiner and a student/instructor doing touch and go circuits, and begs the question as to where the aircraft is technically in the circuit, and therefore has right of way.

Having done a dead side descend to circuit height is the overhead joiner in circuit when he/she crosses the upwind threshold on crosswind?

Having climbed to circuit height, when is the student in circuit? In other words where does downwind begin? Is it when he turns in the downwind direction, or only when abeam the upwind threshold?

If the overhead joiner is crosswind at circuit height, and the student is at circuit height but (let’s say) 1nm to the right of the crosswind aircraft (on a left hand circuit) who gives way? If the answer is the OH joiner is this the same on a right hand circuit? Or is it the first to call downwind, even if the student/instructor/downwind joiner calls this 1nm out?

I know what I think, but I don’t want to upset any students and instructors

Mod: Please feel free to remove this if you think it could provoke acrimonious debate

Dan

[VRB_20kt]

Depends whether it’s a RH or LH circuit. If it’s LH then the approaching aircraft is on your right and has right of way. If it’s a RH circuit then the approaching aircraft will see your port side and should perhaps give way. In practice, one of the unsung benefits of the OHJ is that the joiner can adjust speed and track to fit in with circuit traffic and conflict should be uncommon.

[flyingearly]

The potential for conflict that worries me is that between the overhead joiner and a student/instructor doing touch and go circuits, and begs the question as to where the aircraft is technically in the circuit, and therefore has right of way.

Having done a dead side descend to circuit height is the overhead joiner in circuit when he/she crosses the upwind threshold on crosswind?

Having climbed to circuit height, when is the student in circuit? In other words where does downwind begin? Is it when he turns in the downwind direction, or only when abeam the upwind threshold?

If the overhead joiner is crosswind at circuit height, and the student is at circuit height but (let’s say) 1nm to the right of the crosswind aircraft (on a left hand circuit) who gives way? If the answer is the OH joiner is this the same on a right hand circuit? Or is it the first to call downwind, even if the student/instructor/downwind joiner calls this 1nm out?

If you're on the deadside, you're not in the circuit. When you cross the threshold at circuit height, you're now in the circuit.

Provided you are either at circuit height, climbing to circuit height or descending from the circuit to land, then you are in the circuit at any point you're following the relevant LH or RH turn pattern in use. Size of circuit doesn't matter (provided you don't leave the ATZ); you're still in the circuit (which I think is your second point; if you cross the upwind threshold, you're still on crosswind leg; just as someone else might be who turns crosswind at 600ft after climbing straight out).

If you're joining the circuit, you have to give way to circuit traffic. In the situation you've given above, the other aircraft is already established in the circuit, is on the right and so you have to give way; but you should have adjusted your join to accommodate them already.

Who calls what/where/when is totally irrelevant and - in any case - should not always be taken as gospel (witness the number of people calling overhead who aren't, or calling downwind with half a mile to run!)

[David Wood]

At the risk of going round and round this particular well-trodden circuit it's worth pointing out for the benefit of students (rather than for the benefit of creating/prolonging an argument) that there are a number of misconceptions that tend to be associated with the OHJ.

The first is that the call 'overhead, descending deadside' needs to be made when directly overhead. Or to put it another way, that it is essential to pass through the overhead of the centre-point of the airfield in order to properly and safely execute the OHJ. It isn't. The core requirement is that you are positioned over the ATZ (ie, at a height that is greater than 2000') from where, in days of yore, you could look down at the signal square but in any event you can ascertain the runway in use, circuit direction etc and orientate yourself. Quite often I see students getting into a muddle trying to put themselves right over the centre of the airfield in order to start the OHJ and then wondering why they can't see it. Anywhere that is roughly over the airfield will do, preferably NOT over the very middle.

The second is that it's OK to start the descent prior to passing over to the deadside of the airfield. It isn't. You should be remaining outside the ATZ (vertically speaking) until you are deadside, then enter the ATZ from above, descending below 2000' only when on the deadside in a turn that is in the same direction as the circuit and designed to bring you over the upwind numbers at circuit height.

The third is that it isn't important where you cross onto the live-side. It is. The safest place is over the upwind threshold at the circuit height since that is the place where you are least likely to have an ugly encounter with another aeroplane. But nothing is 100% certain and so you need your eyes peeled, looking especially for other traffic doing the same thing and for any traffic going-around,

Consequently, to return to the OP's question, it is perfectly OK to join from the Deadside and progress directly to the upwind threshold from the Deadside providing that 1) you aren't making non-circuit-direction turn whilst in the ATZ; and that 2) you cross the upwind threshold at circuit height.

As an addendum, the fourth common misconception is that the cross-wind leg is just a convenient short-cut from the upwind numbers to the downwind leg. It isn't. You need to track from the upwind threshold to the downwind leg on a track that is perpendicular to the runway (ie, parallel with the normal crosswind leg). It is very easy to allow the effect of wind and a natural tendency to 'lean into' the downwind leg to result in a curved track from threshold to Downwind.

Finally, I think (although this is probably an opinion that some might take issue with) that talk of 'give way to the right' is more or less irrelevant in the circuit. Within an established circuit pattern joining traffic gives way to established traffic and once on the Final Approach higher/further traffic gives way to lower/closer traffic. But in any event, the circuit isn't the place to make a stand on points of legal principle. Eyes-peeled, care and consideration are the watch-words...

[T67M]

A fifth misconception... The call "overhead, descending deadside" is a single call. It isn't. "Overhead" is when you are first, um, overhead the airfield. "Descending deadside" is when you are, um, commencing the descent on the deadside. These calls may, rarely, occur in quick succession. Or they may be separated by several seconds or even minutes.

[TopCat]

"Overhead" is when you are first, um, overhead the airfield.

Or for White Waltham, more usually Reading or Bracknell.