Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

Moderator: AndyR

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By jcal
#1871412
Paul_Sengupta wrote:You may be approaching too fast, and thus are trimmed for a faster speed. Some instructors like to get students to come in faster to give a bigger margin over the stall, but it doesn't help with the flare. What aeroplane are you flying and what speed are you trimmed for on final?

Sounds about right Paul, having done about 10 more circuits since then I most likely was coming in too fast. I'm on a 152, we're gliding in at 65kts. Having the right profile and well trimmed with good time makes it a lot easier to get a good roundout. As I've learned, it's all about the prep!

Paul_Sengupta wrote:Maybe get the instructor to teach you the wing down method of crosswind landings. This way you're aligned with the runway and deliberately land on one wheel first, but it should at least be landing in the direction the tyre wants to go!

We haven't had as much crosswind as that one time, but I've done a few ok crosswind landings since then. I suspect the biggest issue was just nerves and lack of practice. Was never fully set up to let it fly down on its own so was probably over-controlling it.

I am curious about the wing down method though! I've read about it, and it sounds interesting.

Paul_Sengupta wrote:I sense hope rather than expectation! :D

Haha, hope's the main lift coefficient isn't it?

T6Harvard wrote:Yes, crack on with Air Law! Sorry, I've forgotten, have you got your medical?

I have got my medical yes! So satisfying to have that official piece of paper.. One of the three I will always carry with me when flying as a pilot 8). (See! I have been studying my Air Law :lol:)

T6Harvard wrote:Our school is short of instructors now and my new one told me he is temporary due to pending house move. While I was waiting another new student was signing up and they had no availability until November!

Ouch, that sounds tough... I expect this to be the case in lots of flight schools all over the country this autumn/winter. As happy as I am commercial flying is kicking up again it did spoil us with some excellent spare pilots for the schools!
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By Rob P
#1871459
jcal wrote:I am curious about the wing down method though! I've read about it, and it sounds interesting.


Not only interesting, actually essential.

I know when I was learning it seemed as if the crabbed approach was 'safer'. After all, it just needed one control input at the start of the process, and let's not worry about the really tricky bit to come, 'kicking off the drift'. I mean, how hard can that be?

Then one of the greatest instructors in the flying world entered my life - The Shiny Colt. That little aircraft taught me an awful lot about flying. You see it is a very simple aircraft and has to be flown. One of the simplifications was that they took the flaps and chucked them back in the parts bin. Suddenly it became essential to learn about slipping, sideslips and forward slips.

Now, every approach involved using both the yoke and the rudder at the start, it became so much more sensible to use the same technique for crosswinds. Suddenly there was no longer any need of judgement as to when to kick off the drift, you just held the same controls all the way until first one wheel, then the other touched. So delightfully simple.

Caught by one of the Old Buck snappers landing in a stiff crosswind

Image

Ailerons holding the left wing down, opposite rudder holding the aircraft on track, elevators protecting the nosewheel. Simples.

It is a technique you need in your toolbox.

Rob P
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By Miscellaneous
#1871460
That looks great, @Rob P , as much as it’s interesting to know who took the pic, I’m more interested on who’s skills are on display. Do you happen to know? :wink: :D
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1871462
Rob P wrote:
Ailerons holding the left wing down, opposite rudder holding the aircraft on track, elevators protecting the nosewheel. Simples.

That wingtip would be quite close to the ground if it was a low-wing aircraft. Do you still prefer wing down in the RV?

It's a technique I've always meant to get around to teaching myself but never have.
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By mick w
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1871463
Another bonus , is the benefit of the adverse yaw , provided by the downgoing Aileron , reducing the amount Rudder required to keep straight . :thumright:
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By Rob P
#1871466
Yes I still use wing down in the RV, but have to be a little more cautious about it. Also it seems to require a lot more force on the rudder, whether that is to do with the size of the (RV-8) rudder we have fitted I have no idea.

@Miscellaneous Who was giving that demonstration of the technique? Patently some master sky-god :oops:

Rob P
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1871467
TopCat wrote:That wingtip would be quite close to the ground if it was a low-wing aircraft.


Most low wings have dihedral and/or wheels which are further outboard. It's generally not a problem...it certainly isn't in my Bulldog, which although having inboard wheels, has a lot of dihedral. I've done both landings and take-offs with 30+ knots of crosswind that way (max demonstrated is 35 knots).

Having said that, I've landed a 172 with the wingtip fairly close to the ground...the max demonstrated certainly isn't the maximum it can do! :D

I did, however, use the crabbing method when flying the Grob 109B! :D
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By VRB_20kt
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1871472
It’s not really an option in a certain motor glider with a 57ft (low) wing span and wheels barely outboard of the fuselage - hence the need to have both techniques up ones sleeve.
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By GrahamB
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1871474
Miscellaneous wrote:That looks great, @Rob P , as much as it’s interesting to know who took the pic, I’m more interested on who’s skills are on display. Do you happen to know? :wink: :D

Pssst. It was one of @Rob P 's take-offs.
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By Cessna571
#1871475
How do you sort it all out after the first wheel touches?

If you roll the aileron straight, do you veer off to one side?

My fear is that I touch down on one wheel then don’t know how to get it flat on the runway.

What happens after the first wheel touchdown?
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By Rob P
#1871477
Cessna571 wrote:How do you sort it all out after the first wheel touches?


No sorting out to do, as the speed decays the other wheel touches down perfectly happily, it has nowhere else to go.

You hold the same inputs until the nosewheel lands at which point it's quite useful if the nosewheel is straight* :shock: . You want the into wind wing held down anyway, so you may need to increase the amount of aileron until you stop / turn off.

It's harder to write than to do

Rob P

*assuming steerable nosewheel
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By lobstaboy
#1871494
A properly executed crabbed approach gets converted into a wing down side slip at the round out, so there is an argument that says you might as well simply use the wing down method all the way.
Needless to say I don't think I've ever managed to do that "properly executed crabbed approach" but I keep trying.
I believe the wing down method is preferred by tail wheel enthusiasts?
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1871500
lobstaboy wrote:A properly executed crabbed approach gets converted into a wing down side slip at the round out

Really? That's a new one on me.

I can imagine that in theory, you'd need opposite aileron as you straighten up to counter the secondary effect of yaw, but I've never thought consciously about that.

All I ever do consciously is kick it straight a moment or two before touchdown. In practice, the actual amount of crosswind at touchdown is so much less than during the approach, that in all but the strongest of crosswinds the timing doesn't have to be split-second accurate, although obviously the better the timing, the better it works out. A bit early is better than a bit late, for obvious reasons. A lot early is no good of course, as you're going sideways at touchdown.

The other thing is, when the crosswind is that strong it's very rarely steady, so it's always a question of continuing to fly the aeroplane until all the wheels are down, and beyond.
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By lobstaboy
#1871502
Let's say the wind is from the left. As you round out you feed in a bit of right rudder to align the wheels with the direction of travel (no "kicking " please) and some left aileron to keep to the centre line - ie crossed controls aka side slip.
I find it very difficult to get right though. If your timing is perfect you can get away without the aileron input, yes.
Coming from a gliding background I feel much more comfortable with the crabbed approach as that's all we were taught (wings too big for wing down method).
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