Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1851846
VRB_20kt wrote:Incidentally, why (and how) are you checking the primer? It's something you will never use in flight and to check it seems to me to be introducing a possible mode of failure. It's locked and checked prior to take off. How will its status have changed?

It's never happened to me, but if somehow the plunger got rotated, the lug on the side of the barrel could line up with the gap and the plunger work its way out.

So I check it with a brief pull to make sure it doesn't move.

I could equally argue that there's no need to check the flaps, mags or master downwind that I saw in someone's list. I don't lower the flaps in the cruise or the join, so why would they be different from then.

Likewise why would I switch a mag off so why look at the switch? And I've just called overhead and downwind, of course the master is on.

Some of these things are in the list I suspect in case you've done something stupid and you get a final check. Parking brake and cabin heat are pretty close to the carb heat in the Grummans, I've never pulled the wrong one in flight yet, but it could happen.
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By VRB_20kt
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1851849
TopCat wrote:
I could equally argue that there's no need to check the flaps, mags or master downwind that I saw in someone's list.


I was a bit surprised to see these in pre-landing checks too. Maybe a walkaround prior to landing is needed as well? :wink:
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By editmonkey
#1851853
I might just get a CBUMMFFIHC tattoo on my knuckles. It would save a helluva lot of time and money :)

Seriously though, I think the mnemonics or whatever just help you to remember not to leave anything out - but there's no substitute for doing it in the plane and seeing/feeling the physical effects. Ultimately doing the checks in the real cockpit are what's going to make it stick like glue. I have no aptitude for remembering lists of any kind, as my wife and FI will attest.

But like like mirror signal manoeuvre, or more like the unconscious checks you do before starting the car in the morning, actually doing it makes it make sense (Obvs a bit more to it than that)
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1851859
editmonkey wrote:I have no aptitude motivation for remembering wife-imposed lists of any kind, as my wife will attest.

FTFY :)

But I don't believe you. If you're smart enough to fly an aeroplane (which you obviously are), you're smart enough to memorise a list of 11 words with a bit of effort and repetition if you can be ****, excuse me, bothered.

But like like mirror signal manoeuvre

You mean MSM don't you?

Ah wait, no you don't... you remember the actions. I rest my case :)

I'll stop now, you'll figure it out in your own way, but in the meantime, stop moaning about not having enough time :)
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By Rob P
#1851869
TopCat wrote:That's God agreeing with me about flying singles over water out of gliding distance from land... :tongue:


I never have understood this. Saying that you are happy to fly an aircraft over Surrey, but not happy to fly the same aircraft over the Bay of Genoa? An aircraft that has performed perfectly over three hour legs the previous two days?

This doesn't require an answer, it is wholly rhetorical.

Rob P
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By JAFO
#1851878
@editmonkey - just catching up with your latest lesson.

Any instructor who signed at me or made sarcastic comments might avoid a punch as I have mellowed considerably with age but they would certainly never get my money again.

You are a customer, this is supposed to be fun. If it's not enjoyable at any point then that is not because of something you're doing wrong.

Hopefully the next lesson with a different FI will be different and you can tell the school that you want to fly with them in future - either that or take your hard-earned somewhere else.
By Cessna571
#1851915
Can I mention “master” ?

I think if the master switch isn’t on, you’ll know about it way way before performing any checks.
I’m not sure it’s worth it being in the list.
I can’t think how you’d not instantly know it was off, and how it would get turned off.

If you’re checking master, you may as well add an “R” and check you’ve not turned the radio/intercom off.

Same for mags, who is messing with mags in flight? That’s a pre take off check, not a landing check.

That’s my second 2p!
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By JAFO
#1851917
Rob P wrote:
TopCat wrote:That's God agreeing with me about flying singles over water out of gliding distance from land... :tongue:


I never have understood this. Saying that you are happy to fly an aircraft over Surrey, but not happy to fly the same aircraft over the Bay of Genoa? An aircraft that has performed perfectly over three hour legs the previous two days?

This doesn't require an answer, it is wholly rhetorical.

Rob P


I'm not providing an answer, just commenting that, while the engine may not know it's over water, I do and I don't like water that's deeper than me. :thumleft:
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By Morten
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1851918
I believe I was initially told to put 'Radio' in there somewhere to make sure I was tuned to the right frequency. Having presumably just called and spoken to or at least listened to someone, even Safetycom, that should indeed be the case... What is useful though at large airfields is to have dialled in the second, typically "Tower", frequency so you can switch across when you're passed over without fiddling.

I still get sort of a kick out of thinking through the U. My action is to pat the floor and go 'still down and welded'.

But none of this is critical at any given point. What is more critical is to fly the aircraft, make the turns and descend. Yes, you want to apply carb heat as you reduce power, which tends to be as you turn base. But doing it 10 seconds before or later will not make you drop out of the sky. (For that matter, nor will overflying that village...)

BTW, agree that Master seems a bit rich (sic). How about circuit breakers? If anything, Lights should be there instead.
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1851922
Morten wrote:But none of this is critical at any given point. What is more critical is to fly the aircraft, make the turns and descend. Yes, you want to apply carb heat as you reduce power, which tends to be as you turn base.

Yes, agreed.

At risk of controversy, why even mixture rich downwind?

If you insist on returning carb heat to cold on final in case of a go-around, why not mixture rich then? Less time for an over-rich mixture at low power to cause lead fouling.

I leave carb heat hot anyway until I either land or decide to go around. A go-around should never be a sudden 'slam the throttle open' event in any case as that can bring its own problems. It only takes a small amount of additional power to not land, even if you're already holding off.
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By Rob P
#1851928
Cessna571 wrote:Can I mention “master” ?
I can’t think how you’d not instantly know it was off, and how it would get turned off.


I instantly know I have turned it off when the telescreens that the previous owners replaced a perfectly good six-pack with go blank.

This generally happens on short finals.

Reason? Confusing a badly placed flap switch and the master switch whilst attempting to lower full flap.

Fortunately, we do have a nice round ASI which I use anyway for most flying purposes, it being far easier to read than said telescreen.

Rob P
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By editmonkey
#1851930
There a few times in my rush during pre-landing I've missed an item off my verbal checks because my memory has failed in the moment (usually the mags because they're hidden under the column) and I've never actually been pulled up and ticked off other than for carb heat. And yep - master is on my list.

What the checklist does do every time is cause me to give the control panel a thorough once over, and just mentally check back in with the aeroplane state after the busy-ness of takeoff and climb.

I liked @leiafee 's (I think you mentioned this, right?) technique of doing a left to right scan, much more procedural and action based than memorising lists.

I'll find my way. Just need to get into the cockpit again soon, I can't believe I'm saying this now but I'm itching to do another 10 circuits to try and nail this.

Brakes off is on the list, but the C150 requires applying the toe- brakes to knock out the pressure lock of the parking brake. Always feels a bit wrong applying the toe brakes in flight. Dunno why, think I'm a bit worried I'm going to knock the rudder.
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1851932
FFS, I know they're teaching for every eventuality but what all this boils down to is

a) Carb heat hot
b) Mixture rich (or set where you want if you're at a higher elevation)

Two actions. That's pretty much it.

For my aeroplane I have a) Fuel pump on, b) Prop and mixture fully forward (elevation dependant) and that's it. If I'm flying a retract I'll add something about the dangly bits (no, Rob P, not a euphemism.... :D ) and check RGB on final (Red = Mixture, Green = 3 greens, Blue = Prop). And it's not the end of the world forgetting the fuel pump, I wouldn't fly an aeroplane where the mechanical pump couldn't keep up with full throttle.

I've also had the carb heat cable break on a PA28 on a PFL and had to thermal soar in order to get back to the airport.

What's this about flying over Surrey? Is that because it's the most wooded county in England? There are still plenty of fields.
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By Rob P
#1851936
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
I've also had the carb heat cable break on a PA28 on a PFL and had to thermal soar in order to get back to the airport.


Why not just putter along as normal?

Paul_Sengupta wrote:What's this about flying over Surrey? There are still plenty of fields.


Just random selection of county. It could have been Staffordshire

Rob P
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By Morten
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1851941
editmonkey wrote:Brakes off is on the list, but the C150 requires applying the toe- brakes to knock out the pressure lock of the parking brake. Always feels a bit wrong applying the toe brakes in flight. Dunno why, think I'm a bit worried I'm going to knock the rudder.

The brakes check is, in my experience, not so much to make sure they're off, which they should be unless you push them. (Handbrake is not on the list but clearly should not have been touched since you took off when presumably it was off).
The brake check I do is to feel that there is some pressure against the pedals and therefore that it is reasonable to assume that I will have brakes available when I land.
(Applying this quite firmly on both pedals it is possible that I may unbalance the rudder, but for the short duration that doesn't bother me).

Apocryphally, good old G-HAMR, the PA-28 I soloed in, was written off having had a right wheel brake failure, allegedly at some stage in flight. This was discovered after landing when the brakes were applied asymmetrically and the aircraft veered of the runway and came to a rather unglamorous and sudden halt on the grass... The CFI grumpily said that had the pilot only performed the brake test properly as part of the landing checks, the aircraft could have been saved.
Possibly. Landing at Elstree without brakes and a PA-28 would be tricky, but I suppose you could always divert to a longer runway if you knew you had a problem. Or running off the and at a reduced speed.
Either way, knowledge gives you options.

A real shame, I miss my hammertime 8)
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