Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1851943
Rob P wrote:Why not just putter along as normal?


Because on a hot day, an anaemic PA28, carb heat stuck on and flaps deployed, we were still descending...not much future in that. Once I got rid of all the flap, we were straight and level at about 60ft.

I've had one of the brakes fail in the 'dog when flying to Swansea. I flew it back like that too so it could go to the maintainer's to be fixed.
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By lobstaboy
#1851953
I have flown with a much more experienced instructor than me who refused to use or teach a pre-landing check list. His view was that it encourages mechanical actions without real understanding of what is needed, and that a good pilot should know at all times what the states of all the controls were and what they needed to be next.
I can see his point, but I do use checklists myself.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1851958
lobstaboy wrote:I have flown with a much more experienced instructor than me who refused to use or teach a pre-landing check list. His view was that it encourages mechanical actions without real understanding of what is needed, and that a good pilot should know at all times what the states of all the controls were and what they needed to be next.
I can see his point, but I do use checklists myself.


I must admit, over the years I've increasingly abbreviated my in-flight checklists for exactly this reason.

I don't do FREDA any more. Enroute, I apply carb heat and check the gauges every 10 mins or so. I re-lean if I change altitude significantly. Whether I change tanks or not will depend on how far I'm going, and whether I want to do a fuel consumption calculation or check the consistency of the fuel gauges (which have always been very reliable). The DI and compass are in my scan anyway and I'll resync the DI if it's wrong.

I don't do an explicit HASELL any more either. I know if I'm high enough to do what I'm planning, I know where the flaps are, where I am, what's on the back seat, and I don't need a checklist to look out before I do stuff.

And based on this discussion, I'm moving 'mixture rich' and possibly also 'pump on' from downwind to final as of today. If I die horribly after an engine failure on short final you'll know something broke, and I had failed to change the habits of nearly 30 years :wink:
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By David Wood
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1851959
lobstaboy wrote:I can see his point, but I do use checklists myself.


Me too. But I emphasis to students that its a check list, not an action list.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1851961
David Wood wrote:
lobstaboy wrote:I can see his point, but I do use checklists myself.


Me too. But I emphasis to students that its a check list, not an action list.

Not sure I agree with that, for the downwind checks. Some of them are checks (eg Ts & Ps), some of them are actions (fuel pump, landing light). You wouldn't have done the actions beforehand, and only need to check them pre-landing.

I think of the check items as actions, where the action is to check. And if the check doesn't give you the result you want, chances are there will be an action. Like for instance if all of a sudden you have no oil pressure, that's an immediate mayday to get everyone out of the way so that you don't have to go around. Obviously you'd hopefully have seen it dropping and made the call before downwind, but the point stands I think.

I'd go further, actually, to say that there is absolutely zero purpose in checking anything if you don't have an action to go with the wrong result of the check.

Could you explain why you emphasise as you say?
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1851969
VRB_20kt wrote:They’re only downwind checks if you’re doing circuits aren’t they? Otherwise get them done sooner so that when you enter the circuit your brain has a bit more spare capacity.


It depends.

I like to do the prop and mixture after I've throttled back on final not to create undue noise by increasing RPM while in the vicinity of the airfield.
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By Crash one
#1851972
Not with Cessna/PA28s etc but my aircraft has a throttle lever on each sidewall. The master switch is a “pull on” plunger on the panel right side, it is quite possible for a right hand seater to hit the master switch at full throttle as there is interference between them when backlash is considered.
I have also been known to do a mag check in flight prior to crossing water, just in case I have a dead one! These are toggle switches, no keys.
However a scan left to right and “is the intercom still working?” Is quite enough.
For a student checklists are fine but when you know the aircraft you should know where everything is and what it is set at.
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By David Wood
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1851985
TopCat wrote:
David Wood wrote:
lobstaboy wrote:I can see his point, but I do use checklists myself.


Me too. But I emphasis to students that its a check list, not an action list.

Not sure I agree with that, for the downwind checks. Some of them are checks (eg Ts & Ps), some of them are actions (fuel pump, landing light). You wouldn't have done the actions beforehand, and only need to check them pre-landing.

I think of the check items as actions, where the action is to check. And if the check doesn't give you the result you want, chances are there will be an action. Like for instance if all of a sudden you have no oil pressure, that's an immediate mayday to get everyone out of the way so that you don't have to go around. Obviously you'd hopefully have seen it dropping and made the call before downwind, but the point stands I think.

I'd go further, actually, to say that there is absolutely zero purpose in checking anything if you don't have an action to go with the wrong result of the check.

Could you explain why you emphasise as you say?


I'm afraid that I fundamentally disagree. They are checks; even though we tend use them as action prompts. I wrote an article for GASCO some years ago which rehearsed the argument. But in a nutshell, here's why:

I'm checking out Pilot Smith on an aircraft with retractable undercarriage. Whilst he's not looking (usually on the climb-out) I pull the CB so that the gear won't go down when he operates the switch.

So, if he's an action-list man he starts his downwind checks just as he's been taught.
"Brakes; off"; he says and checks. They are, all good so far;
"Undercarriage down", he says. He moves the lever. Nothing happens, but he doesn't notice because he's not checking, and in any case he's already moved on to the next item.
"Mixture rich";
Etc.

We then both wait (he in contented ignorance, me in anticipation) for the Final Approach Checks*.

Pilot Jones, on the other hand has been taught that these are Check lists. So he's already configured the aeroplane before he starts his downwind checks - and he uses the downwind checks to check that all is well. In particular, he has lowered the undercarriage before starting the checks. When he gets to the check item he checks that they are down, finds that they are not (and I fail to catch him out :lol: )

I'd say that >50% of the pilots I do this to fail to notice on the downwind that the undercarriage is not down. This is often despite occasional comments like "Hmmm, the airspeed's a bit high, isn't it?" They are Action List pilots and they will one day land with the wheels up if they don't mend their ways.

*What is truly frightening is that in around 10-20% of those that failed to notice that they hadn't lowered the undercarriage correctly during their downwind checks also fail to carry out their Final Approach Checks properly. They do so for exactly the same reason: they treat it as an Action List:

"Reds" they physically check that the Mixture Lever is fully forward;
"Blues" they push the Prop Lever fully forward;
"and Greens" they glance down (sometimes they even touch the lights) and assure me that the gear is down.

I usually leave it to about 100' before asking them to check again....
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1851993
Thanks for elaborating, I appreciate your taking the trouble. I completely take the points you're making.

If you're telling me that the psychology of teaching it as checks, compared with teaching it as actions (where you have to check the outcome of your actions for the actions have any point at all), makes a substantial difference to the outcome of this sort of thing, then of course I'm more than happy to defer to your experience.

But it sounds to me as if it's perfectly possible to 'go through the motions', regardless of whether the pilot thinks checks or actions.

Either way, it's complacency at worst, lack of understanding or mental overload at best.

Personally, I shall continue to switch the fuel pump on (action), and then verify that the pressure is still in the green (check). I shall operate the landing light switch (action), and if I'm very lucky, I shall see the ammeter flick briefly as the current load increases (check).

If I ever learn to fly a retractable, I shall operate the gear lever (action), and then verify that the lights are green (check).

I can't see how a genuinely thinking approach to all these aspects of flying wouldn't include both, but as I say, if the semantics make a difference to the psychology, and hence the outcomes, then fair play. :thumleft:
Last edited by TopCat on Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By leiafee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1851994
Paul_Sengupta wrote:And it's not the end of the world forgetting the fuel pump, I wouldn't fly an aeroplane where the mechanical pump couldn't keep up with full throttle.


I can think of occasions where it’s very nice to have a second fuel pump should one cough and die on climbout though!

That was one (maybe two) of my assorted and far-too-quiet excursions into fields instead of runways.
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1851996
David Wood wrote:Pilot Jones, on the other hand has been taught that these are Check lists. So he's already configured the aeroplane before he starts his downwind checks - and he uses the downwind checks to check that all is well. In particular, he has lowered the undercarriage before starting the checks. When he gets to the check item he checks that they are down, finds that they are not (and I fail to catch him out :lol: )

Sorry, I missed this detail in my first reply to this post.

Do you teach a separate list of pre-landing actions, and then a subsequent list of checks?

If so, then checks make perfect sense.

But it's not how most PPLs are taught is it? The pre-landing (aka downwind) list is effectively both actions and checks.
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1852042
leiafee wrote:
Paul_Sengupta wrote:And it's not the end of the world forgetting the fuel pump, I wouldn't fly an aeroplane where the mechanical pump couldn't keep up with full throttle.


I can think of occasions where it’s very nice to have a second fuel pump should one cough and die on climbout though!

That was one (maybe two) of my assorted and far-too-quiet excursions into fields instead of runways.


Like I say, I wouldn't fly an aeroplane where....... :clown:
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By David Wood
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1852169
TopCat wrote:Do you teach a separate list of pre-landing actions, and then a subsequent list of checks?

If so, then checks make perfect sense.

But it's not how most PPLs are taught is it? The pre-landing (aka downwind) list is effectively both actions and checks.


It is a slightly moot point, I accept, @TopCat . The reality is that many us do as you suggested: we check and then rectify if the result of our check is not as we want. But there are things (and the undercarriage is the classic example) where that can be dangerous in practice because the Action overrides the Check and the action takes a few seconds to take effect - by which time if it hasn't taken effect the checklist has moved on.

So what do I teach? Well what I try to do in more general terms is teach students to stay ahead of the game at all times; which means training them to ensure that the aeroplane (including its radio, nav kit and their own situational awareness) is ready for what is about to happen, not just what is happening. Then the Checks become checks because the Actions are already done. I do accept, however, that there is a fair bit of blending of one into the other because it's unrealistic to expect a new student to know, for example, how to configure the aircraft for take-off without, guess what, working through the check-list!

So I'm not pretending that there's a black-and-white right/wrong answer here. It is sufficient to periodically reinforce to the student that, in principle at least, they are checking not necessarily actioning (although an action may result if the check is negative).

I'll stop dancing on the head of this pin now! :lol: I've got to go and mow my runway!
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1852173
David Wood wrote:But there are things (and the undercarriage is the classic example) where that can be dangerous in practice because the Action overrides the Check and the action takes a few seconds to take effect - by which time if it hasn't taken effect the checklist has moved on.

Yes, this is a really good point. Even at PPL level the carb heat check would be in this category.

For a complete check, it has to be left hot long enough to check the outcome (rpm drop and stable if no ice, drop and increase or roughness if ice is present and melting), and then set it cold and note the rpm recovery.

The downwind checks as I was originally taught them had the Ts & Ps check and a lookout in between these.

No good just pulling the knob out and pushing it back.
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