Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

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By David Wood
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1846241
TopCat wrote: .....if you transfer schools, does the new school not get the training records? And if they do, do they ignore them completely, and it's another 45 hours from the beginning?


That's a quite separate question. And yes of course the first school must transfer the training records to the second.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1846246
David Wood wrote:
TopCat wrote: .....if you transfer schools, does the new school not get the training records? And if they do, do they ignore them completely, and it's another 45 hours from the beginning?


That's a quite separate question. And yes of course the first school must transfer the training records to the second.

Yes, it is different, I'd concede.

The core question is, does the 45-hour counter start again at the new school or not?

In many cases, I imagine it would make no difference at all. If someone's going to take an average 55 hours, say, and does 10 hours at school X, chances are they will only need 45 at school Y.

But if someone's done 30 hours at School X, and then needs to move, for family or job or whatever, then if School Y procedures require another 45 hours because they only trust their own sign-offs, that's very different.

How does it work in the real world?
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By MattL
#1846247
@David Wood explains it well!

The procedures for transferring DTO part way through training are in CAP1637

Documents must be transferred if requested by student [although there is a current GDPR query that the documents should only be released to a student not a third party]

On hours:

The Head of Training of the new DTO shall assess the student and determine the balance of training and experience required to complete the course and any additional training necessary to cover the transition from the previous partly completed course;

The applicant shall complete the balance of all training, examinations, flight time and shall complete any additional training necessary as specified in the determination by the HT of the new DTO.
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1846250
TopCat wrote:I'm sure I'm very out of date, but no one quibbled when I flew a few hours, some at Dundee and some at Perth when I first started.


Yes, but that was before the EU stuck their claws in.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1846253
MattL wrote:On hours:

The Head of Training of the new DTO shall assess the student and determine the balance of training and experience required to complete the course and any additional training necessary to cover the transition from the previous partly completed course;

The applicant shall complete the balance of all training, examinations, flight time and shall complete any additional training necessary as specified in the determination by the HT of the new DTO.

Makes sense, thanks for clarifying. :thumleft:
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By editmonkey
#1846662
Procrastinating at work today and thinking about flying. Got another question for the oracles here:

I'm whiling away an hour looking through the Skyway Code and my air law book (as you do :lol: ) reading about FMCs and VOLMETs and wondering how the hell 35-45 hours of training can equip me to both the technical art of skillfully flying a plane AND navigating the airways. Seems at the moment to my relatively untrained eye that you could quite easily spend 35 hours alone just learning how to navigate and communicate.

5 hours in, and so far and for the foreseeable future the course is all about those basic tech flying skills, right? A couple hours on climbs and descents, a couple of hours on turning etc building as I go. At what point generally in the course does radio and nav kick in and how much time is given over to them?

Do pilots find that by the end of the PPL course that they're doing these things with ease - finding the right frequencies, communicating with the correct services, navigating confidently around CZs etc? Just curious as to others' experiences.
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By Rob P
#1846666
editmonkey wrote: At what point generally in the course does radio and nav kick in and how much time is given over to them?


Basic circuit radio will be taught as you are prepared for your first solo (Ex 14). Since that only consists of about six calls in a fairly logical order you shouldn't find this overly challenging

editmonkey wrote:Do pilots find that by the end of the PPL course that they're doing these things with ease - finding the right frequencies, communicating with the correct services


Don't forget, unless you are transiting controlled airspace then talking to anyone other than departure and arrival airfields is optional. After you are set free to wander as you will you can add chatting to people incrementally over your first flights. Start with a simple request to a LARS unit for a Traffic service (You'll probably get a Basic anyway, but it's worth a go), and work up to a zone transit of Heathrow. By planning your route carefully you can define who you need to speak with.

editmonkey wrote:navigating confidently around CZs etc?


SkyDemon (Other apps are available)

Rob P
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1846678
editmonkey wrote:wondering how the hell 35-45 hours of training can equip me to both the technical art
of skillfully flying a plane AND navigating

Wondering this is a good thing.

Once you get your PPL (after some number of hours that you should stop speculating about right now) you will have demonstrated to an examiner that you have the basic skills and the ability to make decent judgements.

Landing will no longer be difficult. Most of the radio work you need to get from one airfield to another in good weather will be at least reasonably familiar, even if you get a bit stuck sometimes. You will be able to plan and execute a flight similar to the ones you've practised. You will have a pretty good chance of walking away from an engine failure if you don't panic.

After that, the skill you need most of all, which is neither taught nor examined, is the ability to know your limitations, and push out the corners of your envelope a bit at a time, safely.

When I got my PPL the first thing I did was several local flights, where I practised all the general handling exercises. Then I went somewhere I'd been before. I built it up slowly, all in good weather.

If you're not an idiot, you won't plan to fly 300 miles in dodgy weather through all sorts of CAS, in the first few weeks after you get your licence :)
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By David Wood
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1846682
editmonkey wrote:Procrastinating at work today and thinking about flying. Got another question for the oracles here:

I'm whiling away an hour looking through the Skyway Code and my air law book (as you do :lol: ) reading about FMCs and VOLMETs and wondering how the hell 35-45 hours of training can equip me to both the technical art of skillfully flying a plane AND navigating the airways. Seems at the moment to my relatively untrained eye that you could quite easily spend 35 hours alone just learning how to navigate and communicate.

5 hours in, and so far and for the foreseeable future the course is all about those basic tech flying skills, right? A couple hours on climbs and descents, a couple of hours on turning etc building as I go. At what point generally in the course does radio and nav kick in and how much time is given over to them?

Do pilots find that by the end of the PPL course that they're doing these things with ease - finding the right frequencies, communicating with the correct services, navigating confidently around CZs etc? Just curious as to others' experiences.


There is a lot to do once you are off on your own, make no mistake about that. Especially once you factor in navigation and then also dealing with the unexpected. How overwhelming that is depends on a number of factors including:
Where you fly - some areas are more complicated to fly around in terms of controlled airspace to navigate or avoid;
When you fly - in terms of the weather conditions;
What you fly - some aeroplanes are more complex than others, meaning that you have more to manage in the cockpit;
How fast you fly - may sound silly, but things happen more than twice as fast at 160kts than they do at 80kts.
How extensive is your own 'experience bank' - at the start it's very small;
How current you are - unlike driving (which you probably do every day without really thinking about it) you will probably only fly periodically. The 'muscle memory' and neural pathways associated with the necessary skills will fade quite quickly if they are not used.
How well you were taught, and how much you want to keep on learning - the first is outside of your control (unless you up-sticks and move schools) but the latter is entirely within your own gift. A good pilot NEVER stops learning, no many how many thousands of hours he has.

So finally (and most importantly) it will depend upon how well you manage yourself and your work-load in the cockpit. It is quite easy to fall 'behind the aeroplane' if any or all of the factors listed start to pile on the pressure. And pressure in the cockpit is self-reinforcing: the more pressure you feel, the less you are able to crawl out from under it; and so the more pressure you will feel.... As you get to the point where you've run out of mental head-room you start to miss things, forget things, react late (or not at all), make poor decisions (or no decisions at all). You are then potentially heading for an accident or at the very least for a dispiriting experience.

So, one of the critical skills you will be taught is about cockpit management. Managing yourself and your work-load so that you are always ahead of the game and not behind it. If you get that skill right and you apply it ruthlessly then you'll find that your capacity as a pilot grows exponentially with experience. If not then you'll never progress beyond the unsafe hobby-pilot.
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By editmonkey
#1846698
Good stuff, thanks guys.

David Wood wrote: And pressure in the cockpit is self-reinforcing: the more pressure you feel, the less you are able to crawl out from under it; and so the more pressure you will feel.... As you get to the point where you've run out of mental head-room you start to miss things, forget things, react late (or not at all), make poor decisions (or no decisions at all). You are then potentially heading for an accident or at the very least for a dispiriting experience.


Reminds me of an interesting article I read about the 'Incident Pit' in relation to diving a while back and it obviously applies equally to flying. I really got a sense of it last week when dodging the bad weather - just how easy it is to become hyperfocussed on one single thing (in my case, not getting sucked up into a big cloud) and start missing vital info everywhere else, start making poor decisions (luckily for me I had an FI with me) and slip very quickly down into the pit.

https://www.outdoorswimmingsociety.com/ ... ident-pit/
Last edited by editmonkey on Thu May 13, 2021 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By editmonkey
#1846699
TopCat wrote: (after some number of hours that you should stop speculating about right now)


I know, I know, right? It's hope rather than speculation. But actually, that desire to get it in 45 hours is fading as time and training goes on. It's becoming apparent that for this to be sustainable alongside work commitments, money, having a life etc I need to start looking at the lessons as a hobby in themselves, try to forget about the end goal and just enjoy the journey. If I get it in 45 great, if not, I'll keep on flying until I do. :D
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1846712
editmonkey wrote:
TopCat wrote: (after some number of hours that you should stop speculating about right now)


I know, I know, right? It's hope rather than speculation.

Stop even hoping!

I absolutely get that with the perspective of 5 hours, you cannot grasp this yet (not a criticism)....

.. but whether you get your PPL in 45 hours or 65 hours, by the time you get to 100 hours, you will be a very different pilot indeed, and the point in that journey to 100 hours where the examiner said 'you've passed' will be looking increasingly irrelevant.

I predict that at 100 hours, you'll be so much more capable and confident, that you'll look back at your skills test (whenever it happened) and wonder (with amazement) why the examiner passed you.

By 200 hours, you'll be very different again, and if you're smart and determined, you'll have avoided complacency and will be putting the experience and competence gained to increasingly good use.

By the time you get to 500 hours, it'll be the same but even more. It never stops.

Process. Not outcome.

I need to start looking at the lessons as a hobby in themselves, try to forget about the end goal and just enjoy the journey. If I get it in 45 great, if not, I'll keep on flying until I do.

Exactly :thumright:
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By bladerunner911
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1846728
I'm loving this thread and all the advice and questions.
I also work during the week so flying lessons are pretty much going to have to be at weekends.
It's weird because I am still waiting for my first proper lesson and I keep looking at the weather and feeling like I'll never start!
I feel like the baby bird on the ground who wants to fly but can't get off the ground yet :lol:
I am consoling myself by reading about your own experiences so keep posting (no pressure 8) )
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By editmonkey
#1846746
Yeah it's been a really invaluable source of wisdom. Do you have your first proper lesson booked in yet?

I consoled myself for not getting enough air time by downloading the OrbX scenery for X-Plane and practicing my new tricks out to the coast and back :)
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