Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

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By Morten
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841438
Inspired by this viewtopic.php?f=5&t=118436#p1841403...

It was an eye opener to me first time I went out in anything less than 10km visibility. Sadly, it seems that few instructors take their students up in or let students solo in visibility of less than 10km and therefore students have not experienced what that actually means.
As a result, the newly fledged PPL holder may well plan a trip in 3-4 km visibility, because you can, right?

Yes, you can, but it is not necessarily advised.

At those visibility levels, navigation becomes much more challenging and a lookout will feel claustrophobic. Add to that the potential sun angle and the greying out effect looking towards the sun and it is very easy to find oneself very occupied and potentially overloaded. What would be a pleasant flight in CAVOK is not so in the lower reaches of the VFR limits and can be quite challenging if not directly dangerous. It's also not very rewarding for passengers.

I wish more instructors would take students down to legal VFR limits to demonstrate what low visibility means to avoid bad surprises early on.

Just a thought...
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841443
Morten wrote:I wish more instructors would take students down to legal VFR limits to demonstrate what low visibility means to avoid bad surprises early on.

Yes, very much agree with this.

One of my earliest IMC training lessons was in vis that couldn't have been much more than 2k. Literally couldn't see anything on the ground till right on top of it.

Even the bad wx circuit on rejoin was quite scary - despite descending out of the overhead keeping it very tight (almost within the airfield boundary), and this was at Goodwood with a VOR literally on the field.

It's worth remembering too, that visibility of X does not mean that you can easily see something on the ground at a distance of X.

Half X if you're lucky, and much less than that into sun.
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By Nero
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841444
As a student, I totally agree! I've had one experience of it so far in my 40hrs to date.

We headed through what was probably 6-8km vis as the coast was clearer and the afternoon due to clear up for the return.

It was a real eye opener to what you CAN do versus what I would WANT to do. So glad I know my current (and medium term) limits in terms of vis

~ Scott
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By Paul_Sengupta
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#1841474
Morten wrote:can be quite challenging if not directly dangerous


It can also be quite relaxing as you sit there fat, dumb and happy, unable to see a sodding thing outside, with virtually no sense of motion! :D
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By Rob P
#1841483
Morten wrote:
At those visibility levels, navigation becomes much more challenging


At least the moving map navigation devices lift that burden.

Rob P
By Fellsteruk
#1841487
Agree and it's proper unnerving I was up on Sunday in CAVOK but at altitude it was so hazy I really struggled to make out stuff and was proper anxious even though i had my instructor next to me.
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By leiafee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841491
For context of course 10k vis means...

You can just BARELY see the other side of your average ATZ.

In your bog standard 90knotish training aircraft it means being able to see not much more than 3-4 minutes ahead of you

One could get oneself into grief very easily that way.
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By Morten
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841520
On a related note, the so - called fishbowl effect:


This was the view south over the Channel around 16h this afternoon on a bright sunny day with, probably CAVOK. Taken on the beach, camera 5m up from the sea. Two seagulls on the bottom right, and a horizon is in there somewhere. But where?
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By mick w
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841533
Nero wrote:Where the nose of my spaceship is? Image

Couldn't find a line function in my mobile's photo app...

~ Scott


He was 100ft up when he took the Pic , so .....PULL UP :wink:
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By lobstaboy
#1841535
Morten wrote:It was an eye opener to me first time I went out in anything less than 10km visibility. Sadly, it seems that few instructors... ... let students solo in visibility of less than 10km... ...the lower reaches of the VFR limits can be quite challenging if not directly dangerous...


Few instructors let their students solo in less than 10k viz because it's dangerous.
It's a mistake to think that showing a student how bad 3-4k is will make them more cautious once qualified. The opposite happens - "it looks rubbish but lobstaboy showed me what it's like and we were ok, so I'll go."
I loathe poor viz and try to get that across to students by having strict minima and sticking to them.
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By Morten
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841554
mick w wrote:
Nero wrote:Where the nose of my spaceship is? Image

He was 100ft up when he took the Pic , so .....PULL UP :wink:

Good guesstimate , I think :thumleft: Here’s the same photo, uncropped, Hastings pier on the left. In clear conditions from the same spot with the same tide, the horizon is roughly as far above the pier deck as the exposed pier columns below the deck as shown below. As Mick says, the danger is that you have very little attitude information and may need to rely on your instruments more than you'd expect in CAVOK...

Image

lobstaboy wrote:It's a mistake to think that showing a student how bad 3-4k is will make them more cautious once qualified. The opposite happens - "it looks rubbish but lobstaboy showed me what it's like and we were ok, so I'll go."
I loathe poor viz and try to get that across to students by having strict minima and sticking to them.

Interesting. I would have thought that the students who would, having seen it with you, go ahead and happily repeat the exercise on their own would be the same as those who wouldn't heed the warnings you gave them and did the same on their own anyway? I guess you'd have to judge on an individual basis whether the student is more likely to get the message by being told or by experience. Horses for courses.
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By AndyR
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#1841555
Early on in my training I was a little miffed that my instructor had cancelled my lesson as it looked fine as far as I was concerned. Sunny and warm, blue sky overhead.

They clearly decided to teach me a valuable lesson, so lesson was reinstated. 5k viz.

Lesson learned.
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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841576
As I knew that trips to Alderney would be a lot of my flying I took the IMCR early on precisely because I was aware of the goldfish bowl effect and it's something to be VERY wary of unless you have instrument flying skills.
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By Highland Park
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841593
Rob P wrote:
Morten wrote:
At those visibility levels, navigation becomes much more challenging


At least the moving map navigation devices lift that burden.

Rob P

That was something that used to concern Gerry Honey. He was all for technological advances, but did worry that it would encourage pilots to fly in conditions that they might not otherwise have done and were pushing their abilities to the limit unnecessarily...

Personally (and maybe I’m ultra cautious), if I can’t see the Tacolneston Mast on the ground from the airfield, I don’t bother to get the Colt out of the hangar, as it means viz is less than 5000m...

Ian
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