Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

Moderator: AndyR

#1811570
Hi there,

This is my very first post here. I'm studying aerospace engineering with pilot studies but I'm confused about licensing and I wondered whether anyone here might be able to help. As you might be able to tell from all my questions, I've got a lot to learn.

At the moment I'm really eager to begin training and my flight school have requested payment, but I don't want to pay the £4000 non-refundable fee if licencing issues prevent me from completing my training.

One of the staff members at my university has informed me that I'll have to apply for either a PPL, LAPL or NPPL. I'll be learning to fly in a Piper PA 38 tomahawk, would any licence be suitable for this aircraft, or will I need a specific one?

It's my medical history that may pose obstacles to me obtaining a license. I have a history of depression and self-harm and a diagnosis of aspergers syndrome (though I really think this diagnosis is inaccurate.) I'll add that all of these issues are historic and it's been about 8 years since I've had any problems.

At first I thought there's no way I'd be eligible for a PPL given my medical history, but after a quick chat with an AME about my situation they've encouraged me to apply for a PPL, but that I'd need to provide my full medical history and go for an appointment with an AME at Heathrow. Whilst it's wonderful to know I may be eligible for a PPL, arranging a medical prior to starting flight training would take time that I don't really have.

To be honest I want to fly purely for leisure so for now an NPPL would suit me just fine provided I can use it with the Piper PA 38. From reading the information on the CAA website, I believe I'd meet the medical requirements for an NPPL but given my medical history, do you think I'd have to visit an AME just like I'd have to do for a PPL medical?

My flight school have said they can provide information on types of licencing as I go through my training. So really I could begin my training now and worry about all the licencing stuff in a few weeks time, but what happens if two weeks into my flight training I find out I'm not eligible for any licence, will I be allowed to continue with training? (I'm assuming no)

I'll be learning with a reputable flying school but to me it feels a bit dodgy to say they'll advise me on licencing once I've paid and started training considering the payment is non-refundable. I've been working nights doing manual labour for minimum wage to save up for this, it'd be a big blow if I couldn't complete my training having already paid.

I'm really grateful if anyone could clarify things for me, or to hear from anyone who might have a similar experience.

Thanks for reading!
#1811582
just go and get the class 2 medical before you start any training. Make sure to take all your information to the appointment and be honest with the AME because you will be required to sign a declaration.

if you get issued with the class 2 then start the training.
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By GrahamB
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1811583
Licensing is in a bit of flux at the moment, as the Brexit transition period ends on 31/12.

As things stand an NPPL will not permit you to fly a PA38. The CAA have indicated that their intention is that it will at some point post 31/12, although there is no timescale for that as yet. Be advised that an NPPL is not recognised outside of UK airspace. Others here are more qualified than I to comment on the medical aspects

More concerning is the concept of a non-returnable £4000 advance payment. Rule 1 of flight training is to never pay up front any amount that you can’t afford to write off. Too many people have been badly burnt by schools going under and taking their students’ cash with them.
#1811599
If you are flying just for pleasure you don't have to train on a PA38.

Try other schools in your area, consider a 3-Axis microlight (i.e. it looks and flies like a normal aircraft.)

Don't pay big sums up front.

Even if you haven't/can't get a medical you can still have lessons and experience the joy of flight, albeit with someone sitting next to you.
#1811607
Bluebell wrote:I'll be learning with a reputable flying school but to me it feels a bit dodgy to say they'll advise me on licencing once I've paid and started training considering the payment is non-refundable.


Sounds more than a bit dodgy to me @Bluebell.

Do not pay up front any more than you can afford to lose and never, ever see again.

My advice would be to try for the medical first. I would guess that whatever route you took you might end up seeing an AME anyway. I'd invest my money in the initial medical rather than someone saying "Give us four grand and we'll talk about the other stuff later." Does that include getting your driveway re-tarmaced?

The PA38 is a lovely little trainer. As others have said, not the only option for the leisure pilot but great fun.

Most of all, good luck, enjoy the journey, don't be in too much of a hurry and DO NOT hand over large sums of cash. If they say that you have to pay up front then walk away, you are the customer, there are plenty of other people out there who will recognise that.
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By WelshRichy
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1811681
Welcome!

Never pay for courses up front. Never. Ever. Please. Never. Red flags appear with the schools requirements outlined above. Pay as you go, like Paul suggests the normal method is to fly and pay for the flying you have just completed.

The PA38 is a fabulous training aeroplane (I would be biased as that was my mount many years ago).

As has been said before only you can answer the medical questions but go and see any AME around the country (list available on the CAA website). No need to go to Heathrow unless they are your closest. Have a chat with the AME before your appointment as they may require some medical reports for past history (i.e. I need to supply asthma reports) and having these up front may speed the process up. You need the medical before you can go solo.

I would just like to add that there are instructors out there who cannot teach the PPL because they haven't taken the CPL exams and will be limited to LAPL for ab-initio training. This is a little crazy as the LAPL and PPL courses are basically the same pre-first solo, i.e. basic attitude flying and circuits resulting in your first solo. You cannot count any hours flown with a LAPL-only instructor for the purposes of obtaining a PPL. You would need to complete your LAPL course and have the licence issued before "upgrading" to a PPL.

The LAPL is a sub-ICAO EASA licence and post 1/1/21 we will be out of EASA. In the current climate, it is most probable a UK issued LAPL will not be valid outside of UK airspace, i.e. you will not be able to fly to France, Belgium, Republic of Ireland etc.

If you are able to obtain a Class 2 medical you'd be able to go for the PPL which is a full ICAO licence and will be valid worldwide for G-Registered aeroplanes (UK). As it is an ICAO licence you will also find other countries will gladly validate your licence for flying their registered aeroplanes as well, i.e. the FAA in USA would issue you an FAA PPL under 61.75 (Federal Aviation Regulations Chapter 61/Paragraph 75) based upon the validity of your UK CAA PPL and would then allow you to fly N-registered aeroplanes anywhere in the world.

Learning to fly is a brilliant pastime and welcome to the forums. Feel free to ask anything here we're a friendly bunch.
T6Harvard, Kemble Pitts liked this
#1811747
Lots of good advice above .--TAKE NOTICE,
NEVER NEVER PAY UP AHEAD--£4000!!! -GO somewhere else.
Also get your medical sorted before you start to fly.
Personally my advice would be to go for a PPL.
I know of a couple of people who thought they would do an NPPL FIRST--JUST WASTED THEIR CASH.
By riverrock
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1811754
This feels a bit confused. Which Uni is this? What pilot qualification will you have at the end of it? There are loads of courses out there, all subtly different.

If the university is recommending (or requiring) certain flight schools, will they cover the fees if the school isn't able to provide the course (they go bust, aircraft aren't serviceable, their instructors find better jobs elsewhere etc)? As said above, many flight schools, including some of the biggest ones, have gone bust taking their "customer's" money with them (with people losing tens of thousands of pounds when on commercial courses).
What does the fee include (ground school, flying hours, flight instruction, landing fees, exams, security checks, travel, accommodation) and what extras do you need to pay, eg, if you don't complete the course in the minimum hours (most people don't - even just because of weather). The fee will be based on a certain type of aircraft - what if you want to change? There are few "economy of scale" advantages in flight training, but do check if there is any reason why you can't pay as you go (or perhaps, keep an account topped up, or keep an amount in escrow rather than in a flight school's account).

I'm confused that they say you can discuss which licence to go for later as flight courses generally require that is stated from the start (different paperwork needs filed). Also microlight courses are going to be in more fuel efficient aircraft - and so cost a lot less!

I'd always recommend that if there is a chance that you may want to take pilot qualifications in the future or fly outside the UK, to start with a ICAO compliant PPL (also known as an EASA PPL or Part-FCL PPL till January when we leave the EU) as it gives you the most flexibility.
If there is a chance you may want to fly an aircraft professionally in any capacity, try to get a Class 1 medical. At least you will then know if its possible.
For most students, an LAPL doesn't save much cost, as they need to fly more than the minimum hours to complete the course, and an NPPL only makes sense for microlights (and there is a bit of an unknown whether you can use your NPPL training towards getting a PPL in the future).

We normally think of becoming a pilot (private or otherwise) completely separately from an academic course. In which case you have a free choice of flight schools.
My understanding is that some Unis are able to provide the ground school as part of their degree programme, then you pay extra for flight training (eg https://www.liverpool.ac.uk/study/under ... /overview/ or
https://courses.uwe.ac.uk/H405/aerospac ... ot-studies ).
I suspect that there are tax advantages (you normally pay VAT for pilot training but you don't for Uni courses) and you might be able to use a student loan towards flight training.