Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

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By Flyin'Dutch'
#1821187
Sooty25 wrote:I'd have wanted the cowl off to make sure there wasn't something more sinister going on before I flew it.


Indeed.

Do not take an aeroplane with a known defect into the air.

Difficult position to be in as a student but that's a good principle to go by.
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By Charles Hunt
#1821285
I think it depends on whether the school said "We've had a look and everything is OK and we've done a a test flight and it just happens briefly at low revs and it really is safe."

Or just glibly "It's OK."

FWIW I walked away from a school where the a/c had no oil pressure "The engine just went in yesterday It'll be the sender wire off." I accepted it that once, but when it was still doing the same a week later............
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By exocet12
#1838990
Harry.Brown wrote:ROG, the reason students only mention STUDENT on initial contact is because that’s what CAP 413 states .

16 year old Sam Cross, who died on his second solo flight at Southend, would probably still be alive today if he had prefixed EVERY call with “student”.


@Harry.Brown - thanks for drawing attention to this. I just read the AAIB from that fatal crash and it is very illuminating.

I do not understand why CAP413 has the requirement only for initial contact, other than for brevity. Having completed my PPL last year, during training I would often prefix or suffix all my calls with "Student-xx" for that very reason - what happens if there's a change of controllers (yes, they have the slip of paper) or if a new aircraft joins the circuit? It is better to be explicit in my view, at the trade off of the 1/3rd of a second it takes to say "student".

In fact, having read CAP413 during my training, and having heard others on Farnborough's freq also only mention it during the initial call, at some point I stopped saying "Student" except for the initial call.. I was then, within a couple of flights, was pulled up (politely) by one of the FI's in another aircraft to the effect of "G-xx, I think G-(me) is a Student and he should be affixing his calls with "Student"". This led to a brief in air mea-culpa from me and a more detailed on the ground conversation - but I am very glad the FI did that, and I used "Student" more frequently than CAP413 requires, but I also think more safely.
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By Paul_Sengupta
#1838999
The "Student" prefix in general was only brought in after that crash.

There used to be the "Tyro" prefix a long time ago offering a similar thing, but it's long since fallen out of favour.
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By Rob P
#1839044
exocet12 wrote:I was then, within a couple of flights, was pulled up (politely) by one of the FI's in another aircraft to the effect of "G-xx, I think G-(me) is a Student and he should be affixing his calls with "Student"".


Instructors often get things wrong, but few of them are stupid enough to broadcast their mistakes.

11.4 On initial contact with Air Traffic Service Units (ATSUs) (including ATC
centres and aerodromes providing an ATC service, an Aerodrome FIS
(AFIS) or an AGCS), student pilots who do not yet hold a licence and
who are flying solo as part of their training are to prefix the aircraft
callsign with the word “STUDENT”.1

Once acknowledged, it will not normally be necessary for student pilots to use
the prefix in subsequent transmissions until making initial contact with
other ATSUs, unless they feel they are being instructed to do something
with which they are unfamiliar.


11.5 ATS personnel will acknowledge the initial call, again using the prefix,
and can be expected, in so far as is practicable, to make due allowance
for the limited experience and ability of student pilots in determining
the pace and complexity of instructions and/or information which are
subsequently passed.

11.6 A solo student pilot experiencing an emergency and communicating
with a military unit or the D&D Section shall use the ‘STUDENT’ prefix
with the aircraft callsign as part of the distress or urgency message.
A military ground station or the D&D section receiving a distress or
urgency message from a student pilot may use this information on pilot
experience to render the most appropriate assistance.


Rob P
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By exocet12
#1839050
Well, yes, by the letter of the law I was correct in my application... my point was that it led to a longer conversation, which for me meant I learnt something and got a better understanding of the regulations.

FWIW, it was 50/50 (maybe a bit better, 70/30 perhaps) whether ATSUs would explicitly acknowledge student status or not. In that case, the ambiguous language in the second paragraph of section 11.4 would suggest the student should err on the side of caution. In any event, I was never told to stop hogging the airwaves by saying student in advance of my abbreviated callsign.
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By Rob P
#1839054
No criticism of @exocet12 intended.

Rob P