Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

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By JAFO
#1853931
Cheers @T6Harvard - I hope you enjoy it.

If the weather is okay tomorrow I hope to get a little bit of video and make a new one soon, just charging up the GoPro.
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By editmonkey
#1853966
Sorry you felt it didn’t go well this week @T6Harvard , the circuits are brutal and from your other posts it sounds like your actual flying is fine and it’s the procedural circuit stuff that’s causing bother.

Was wondering, how much is your instructor talking to you through the circuit? I found that when the FI completely stepped back and refused to help (other than if something serious was about to occur), things clicked. Not sure why but just a thought. I was making lots of mistakes (including flaps coming off all at once) but not having that voice constantly pointing out each misdemeanour and being allowed to make mistakes and figure it out myself calmed things considerably.

@JAFO Cool, you’ve written a book?
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By lobstaboy
#1853967
Learning something as complex as flying with many different skills needed all at the same time is not meant to be easy. It's a mistake to expect progress to be smooth and linear. Real life learning to fly goes in fits and starts, plateaus, steep bits, and times of going backwards. That's ok.
A very common example is when something you've been doing really well for weeks suddenly becomes impossible to get right any more. This usually happens when a new bit of learning takes up the same piece of brain space - so something that you can do but need to think about is crowded out. Later it will bed in as an automatic routine and it'll be easy again.
Another thing is when you get critical of yourself (with a bit of encouragement from your instructor) for a sloppy bit of flying. If you think about this you'll realise that a few weeks ago you wouldn't have noticed or known what was wrong - your improvement and your learning is what you can analyse in your own flying, even if you can't always make it go right yet.

Simple message - keep at it and keep cheerful, you're getting there and having a great time on the journey!
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1853968
editmonkey wrote:from your other posts it sounds like your actual flying is fine and it’s the procedural circuit stuff that’s causing bother.

This is very much my take, too.

Was wondering, how much is your instructor talking to you through the circuit? I found that when the FI completely stepped back and refused to help (other than if something serious was about to occur), things clicked. Not sure why but just a thought. I was making lots of mistakes (including flaps coming off all at once) but not having that voice constantly pointing out each misdemeanour and being allowed to make mistakes and figure it out myself calmed things considerably.

So much this ^^. I completely agree.

I'm only guessing, as I don't know you, but I would wager a small amount of actual cash that it's related to this:

Flying is often taught as a series of things to do at specific times and places. Once you can fly, all those things make perfect sense in context. However, before you can fly, they are a list of unrelated random actions that have to be done at the same time as attempting to do something fundamentally unnatural.

A bit like trying to write computer software while attempting to learn to ride a unicycle*. I can't ride a unicycle, but I can write software, and I sure as feck wouldn't be able to if I was also trying to ride the unicycle. Eventually, I expect I could learn to do both, but it would be a hard process with a lot of bruises.

When your instructor sat quietly and left it up to you, I suspect what happened was that part of you understood that you had a lot more responsibility for controlling the aeroplane in the various phases of flight**, as I mentioned earlier. You focused on that, rather than all the buggering about with knobs and levers, and hey presto, it was a lot easier.

For reasons I won't go into now, I've been deeply suspicious of flying school teaching methods for a long time now. I don't think they suit everyone equally, and I suspect good instructors adapt their approach, either deliberately or subconsciously, to get the student to focus on what is important for them at each given moment.

____
* of course most will notice that this is a terrible analogy. A better one would be that it's like trying to remember the maths of gyroscopic precession while learning to ride a unicycle. But I don't know either of those.
** which you had already learned from the earlier exercises.
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By lobstaboy
#1853972
To add to what @TopCat just posted-
Instructional methods are still based heavily on what works for the military, and to a lesser extent schools for students progressing to commercial flying. In the military, if you can't keep up they throw you out - that's fine because they don't want to waste time and money and there are plenty more potential students. As a tax payer I approve.
But teaching someone to fly for fun as a leisure activity must be different. Here the instructor needs to coach and guide the learning process and to maintain the customer's enthusiasm (I deliberately didn't say student - that's part of the problem). It's a different thing. In particular the instructor needs to understand how people learn - some differently to others - and to work with them rather than forcing into a particular mould.
Reality isn't binary of course, there are plenty of good instructors in leisure flying. But it's why folk are always suggesting a change of instructor when it's really not working.
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By Crash one
#1853978
@lobstaboy @TopCat
Very early in training I once asked a gliding instructor if I could try something by myself. He agreed but asked what I was about to do in case I was about to turn it upside down.
“I want to try a turn with just the rudder, no banking” go ahead he said, but watch the altimeter and rate of decent.
So I picked a convenient tree to aim at, pushed the rudder and the nose swung round pointing at the farmhouse. Held it for several seconds and watched the altimeter winding down.
Released the rudder and the nose swung back to the tree. “Happy now?” He asked.
I had learned something, no amount of “you must use bank to turn” without the explanation was going to sink in until I tried not doing as I was told.
I think a lot of instructors tend to insist on getting everything correct at the same time rather than let the student see the consequences of getting one or more elements wrong, then get those right and forget something else.
It doesn’t take long before more and more comes right and less goes wrong.
The instructor is there to stop the wrong bits killing you both.
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By lobstaboy
#1853992
Crash one wrote:The instructor is there to stop the wrong bits killing you both.


Very true. People learn from doing stuff and seeing what happens. However it also helps if the person learning to fly pays really good attention to briefings before and after the flight, so that the flying bit becomes simply "oh yes it does do what my instructor said it would."

Incidentally the effects of controls lesson where what happens when you apply just rudder for example, is really important. Problems later on are often a result of not properly understanding how the controls work and why they don't necessarily do what you'd expect.
(It's interesting to read text books from say the 1930's and notice that even then they were still explaining things poorly - eg "in a steeply banked turn the rudder becomes the elevator")
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By Crash one
#1854000
I’ve also noticed on some of these threads that trimming is not mentioned very much.
I had a hell of a job sorting that out in the early days, that horrible wheel thing in the Cessna, trying to be a mini airliner is a pain in the ass.
So, trim trim trim trim! Makes a big difference to having more spare brain capacity for other things if the aircraft is pretty much flying itself hands off rather than fighting with it.
An example of that is during a touch and go you are trimmed for 60 knots power off, (trimmed a lot nose up) you then do the go around, full power, the nose automatically goes up far too much while you are messing around with flaps, carb heat, speeds, turn angles etc. Yes the carb should be cold by then, but, have a look at exactly how much of a power drop are you getting on climb out with carb hot? (If you are allowed to!)
Perhaps have a think as to which actions are really vital and which are not so much.
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1854004
Crash one wrote:So, trim trim trim trim! Makes a big difference to having more spare brain capacity for other things if the aircraft is pretty much flying itself hands off rather than fighting with it.

Absolutely. :thumleft:

I trim all the time. In the climb, in the descent, in thermals, and (shock horror) even in the hold-off sometimes, if for some reason I'm late with everything else (for example if I've got the flaps coming down while side-slipping off the height after a high approach*) and I want less stick force for more finesse.

And of course after landing. Full up trim in the Grumman makes steering with no brakes so much easier as holding the stick back requires less force.

Also, more relevant to the students, if the aircraft is trimmed, altitude excursions will be smaller if you get distracted by other things for a moment or two.
__
* For instance, in a strong wind, with an extensive built-up area in the undershoot, and I've had to space behind someone dragging it in low and slow, I'll stay high until very late and then lose all the height quickly by sticking all the flap down in one go with lots of crossed controls. Not necessarily recommended if you're not very confident with your aircraft, but useful, and IMO safer than having nowhere to go except someone's driveway if it goes quiet.
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By T6Harvard
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1854005
@lobstaboy "your learning is what you can analyse in your own flying, even if you can't always make it go right yet"
Yes! More often I know what's wrong, I can even FEEL what's wrong now. I'm looking at the relevant instrument or recalling the target speed but just can't do the correction quickly enough. It's a bit like wading through treacle :mrgreen:

Thanks for everyone's input, all very useful and gratefully received.
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1854007
T6Harvard wrote: Yes! More often I know what's wrong, I can even FEEL what's wrong now.

You've done it now.... :shock:

That is such a clear, unambiguous sign of progress that you're going to get a lot less tolerance for all the goddamn moaning about how awful you are. :D
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By T6Harvard
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1854008
Trimming has a big emphasis at my school, exactly for the reasons you say @Crash one and @TopCat .

My confusion last lesson was to insert trimming after a touch and go, as if an initial TO. I mean on initial TO I attain 67kts, hold and trim. So after T&G I was trying to trim nose up like that when, obvs, we were already nose up trimmed. Doh.
So I suppose one bit of learning had stuck :lol:
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By Crash one
#1854009
My Emeraude has a trim lever which is very sensitive, 1/2 inch of movement on the lever and it would stall! It also has a second trim tab on the tail that is controlled by the flap lever, put down half or full flap and the out of balance is 90 % trimmed out automatically then fine adjustment with the other.
I’ve been told it can be landed hands off using the trim lever! Never tried it down to the ground but I believe it.
Nothing worse than sitting there pulling and pushing trying to hold level and speed, decent or climb.
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