Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

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By T6Harvard
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1908565
Quote
"low&slow wrote:
Some people tend to fly the aircraft towards where they are looking. If
they are looking at the ground over the nose as they round out they tend to
land the aircraft flat.

*** If they have been told to look at the far end of the runway when rounding out they tend to round out too much, too soon & end up holding off at 10' agl until running out of energy.
That might be what your instructor means by the nose being too high as you hold off;
you're at the landing attitude when you should still be slowly descending. ***

**** If you are one of these people the solution is to change your "aiming point" as you get lower, the closer your wheels are to the ground the further down the runway you look." ****
----

^^^ That! *** and That!! ****

Yes, thank you, [usermention=5061]@low&slow[/usermention] that's it!!

In an attempt to look at the horizon and raise the nose to landing attitude I am skipping the process of moving the aiming point.

I'll definitely also review my seat height next lesson. I sit on a cushion (due my short legs) but this was a slightly different aircraft from Monday's and seat adjustment is always a problem. I know it can make a huge difference in a car so why not in an aeroplane?

And... I may also try with just 2 stages of flap to find a different perspective on Approach, just till I get that back on slope. I've had approaches nailed so to find this stupid habit developing is infuriating.

Doh and double Doh.
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By T6Harvard
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1908567
Yes, [usermention=6808]@Miscellaneous[/usermention] , I think a break from circuits for my sake and my poor Instructor's! I think we were both* about to lose the will yesterday.
* well that's unfair on the him. He was completely professional but he must have been wondering.

My drive home was a heady mixture of utter despondency, embarrassment and infuriation. If I was a drinking woman I'd have been pouring a large one.

Still, in the cold light of day... a plan is forming.
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By T6Harvard
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1908574
I was thinking of going to the practice area and doing some nice general handling and a bit of slow flight as suggested by Topcat (although I'm happy with controlling slow flight generally), but anything that is not going round and round remorselessly!

But since you and others mention it, a proper trip out would make a nice change :mrgreen:
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1908610
T6Harvard wrote:
> a bit of slow flight as suggested by Topcat (although I'm
> happy with controlling slow flight generally)

With apologies to instructors here for an inevitably wild generalisation, personally I don't think they teach slow flight slow enough.

The purpose of my suggestion is two-fold.

Firstly, it's good for generally sharpening up your handling finesse, as coordinating stick and throttle is actually quite difficult to stay absolutely level as your AoA increases and then decreases again, with power decreasing to initially slow down, then increasing again as you get to stall warner speed, then increasing more to speed back up again, and then decreasing again as the drag reduces.

But secondly, it gives you time to lock in the feeling of the nose-high attitude that you would otherwise get only for a very few seconds on each circuit - or not at all if you bodge it a bit - while you're very busy with other things.

Once the familiarity with the attitude is built, it will feel much more natural to achieve it at a height of a foot.

But there's no point in doing the exercise to help with your landings, unless you fly it all the way down to the stall warner blaring, and keep it there for a while before speeding up again.
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By Miscellaneous
#1908673
T6Harvard wrote:
> But since you and others mention it, a proper trip out would make a nice
> change :mrgreen:
IMO the change of focus really is rewarding. :thumright: I'm with [usermention=862]@TopCat[/usermention] and the slow flight suggestion, however that's still 100% focus on handling. Taking yourself (and your instructor :D) off for a jolly gives you a break from the intensity and a new rewarding experience. I've known many a student do it.
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By Miscellaneous
#1908681
Let us know how it goes. :thumright:

Another thing I've been hesitant to suggest is not to being afraid to say 'your aeroplane'.

Clearly it's not something you can do everytime it's not going well, however IMO if it has clearly gone beyond, following through to an inevitable cock up is more mentally damaging than passing control. And doing so doesn't mean it's not a learning experience.

Something along the lines of; you have control, show me how you fix it, if you would be so kind. :wink:

Of course you may already do that. :thumright:
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1908686
Miscellaneous wrote:

> Something along the lines of; you have control, show me how you fix it, if
> you would be so kind. :wink:
>

That is a very interesting idea. My immediate reaction was 'no, that's completely wrong', but actually after a little reflection I'm not so sure. Most of what I know now about sorting out borked approaches I taught myself after I had my licence, so I'm not really qualified to have an opinion on this one.

Speculating totally, though, it sounds like it would have to be used very sparingly. Sometimes you have to go through the pain because the learning comes from what you feel through the controls, not through watching.

Over-used, it could become a crutch (although I don't think [usermention=23363]@T6Harvard[/usermention] is remotely at risk of this herself).

And if left too late, options for sorting out a botched flare might diminish because of the inevitable delay in handing over control.

But I can see that in some cases it could be beneficial.
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By Miscellaneous
#1908691
As I said in my post, [usermention=862]@TopCat[/usermention], it's not something that can be used too frequently. On that we are in agreement. :thumright:

Here's my rationale:

When the point of not knowing what to do is reached and inputs become 'random' (or may be not understood would be better) the experience can become a negative one. One which carries forward to the next and the next circuit. IMO there is absolutely no shame whatsoever in acknowledging it has gone beyond one's ability/knowledge/experience and relinquishing control. That way it minimises the despondency which results from getting it wrong and either failing to put it right, or doing so without actually understanding how.

And, just as importantly, if not moreso, it let's the student see and hear what is wrong and how to recover it. Personally I think in [usermention=23363]@T6Harvard[/usermention] 's case that may well be of far more use than her instructor demonstrating a perfect circuit. From my reading of her posts what's needed is some help in fixing it when it gets a bit awry. :wink:

Maybe that's why you had to teach yourself how to put it right, because instructor demonstrations are 99% how it should be done. :wink:

FTAOD, I say again it is only appropriate when the learning experience is going to be negative. :D
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By T6Harvard
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1908695
My only come-back to the above,[usermention=6808]@Miscellaneous[/usermention] is to defend my Instructor.

He's picked up the pieces and he has pretty much got it right, leaving me to make the corrections I am capable of doing, adding a few words when needed, giving feedback immediately it goes right or wrong.

Yesterday was intensely annoying because I just couldn't get out of the rut, despite good advice from the RHS!

I'll get over it. Thanks for the support everyone. I'm off to do some more imaginary landing. I'll be perfect before the day's out :lol:
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By Miscellaneous
#1908696
T6Harvard wrote: I'm off to do some more imaginary landing. I'll be perfect before the day's out :lol:

Eh, surely your imaginary landings don't need some work. :wink:


FTAOD my comments are not in any way a criticism of your instructor.

I've every confidence you'll get there, you have the right attitude. My only concern is the state of your finances once there. :shock: :lol:

Enjoy your imaginary landings, I'm off to walk round to the pub. :cheers:
By Cessna571
#1908718
[usermention=23363]@T6Harvard[/usermention]

Hi,

remember that none of us were there with you, could see what was going on, how you and your instructor interact, and most importantly how good (or bad) you are at this.

My personal view is that you’re probably fine.

You do know that none of us are sky gods, not every landing sees the stall warner go off, etc etc.

There’s a stage during circuit bashing when it all gets a bit despondent, you think “will this ever end? will I ever get it?”
Sometimes during that stage you completely forget how to land. (No really).
When you get to that stage, you’re at the beginning of the end! That’s a good place to be.

We’ve all been through it. Luckily your instructor has seen it lots. He’s probably forgotten how big a thing it is, because he sees every student come out the other side.

My small bit of advice is not to worry so much, if you trust your instructor ask him what he thinks (he’s the one sitting with you, who actually knows).

He’ll say something like “you’re fine… it’ll happen”

What he really means is “I’ve seen all this before, don’t worry, it’s normal”.

It seems to me you are searching for perfection and others are searching for your perfection on your behalf too.

That ain’t gonna happen, none of us are perfect.

Maybe back off on your negativity?
Not every landing needs a stall warner, not every turn to final is at 700’ etc etc etc.

If your instructor had a heart attack next time you fly, you’d get back wouldn’t you?
You’d radio for an ambulance and you’d land the thing. I think you’re pretty confident you’d keep the wheels on too!

My 2p?

Don’t get stuck in a rut discussing all the things you can’t do, we’ve seen it here before. Don’t make your identity “The person who can’t do this” or “the person that finds it hard to land”.

The more you say that, the more it becomes true.

There’s some interesting psychology around it.

If you say “I can’t land”, then YOU said it. Whose point of view do you believe most in the world? Who do you trust most? That’s right YOU. Who has just said that you can’t land.

Now you’re in a pickle… if you start landing perfectly, you’ve just proved yourself wrong. You were wrong, you can land.

There’s no way your subconscious is going to let you do something that proves you were wrong.

There’s a fancy name for this dichotomy, I can’t remember what it is, but it is a thing.

Don’t become the Flyer Forum “can’t land” person.

I hope you realise it’s not easy at first, your instructor knows what he’s up to, your landings are fine, when they become consistent, you’ll do one on your own, and then you’ll be on to the next stage and it’ll all be overwhelming for a while again.

Fun isn’t !!

No genuinely… fun isn’t it!

Please say out loud “I can land, it’s fine, just got to make it consistent now”.

(btw, consistent doesn’t mean the same every time.)

Because you can. Don’t worry about slow flight, or the stall warner, or imaginary landings. Imaginary landings don’t work. You have to feel landings.

Imaginary circuits work, because you’re learning a procedure.

Imaginary landings are all greasers, no pilot does all greasers, which proves that imagining them is useless.

Every pilot calls downwind at the correct time, you can learn that by imagining it.

You’ve seen me type “if your instructor ever offers another circuit, always accept it, you can’t fly in your kitchen the following day”.

That’s because you can’t usefully imagine a landing in your kitchen the next day.

That’s slightly longer than I meant it to be. Not quite as succinct as I meant it to be, but I hope the “stop being so negative, stop searching for perfection and listen to your instructor most” came across !

(Well, that’s my 27p)
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By T6Harvard
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1908719
[usermention=22734]@Cessna571[/usermention] Many a good point in what you say!

The thing is .... I have actually said to myself that if the RHS was incapacitated I know I could get us back in one piece. Basically I'm at the 'really annoyed with myself' stage now, also not a sensible place to hang round!

I can land, it's fine, just got to make it consistent now :thumleft:

Cheers

And yes, it is amazing to be doing any of it :D
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By Milty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1908720
What [usermention=22734]@Cessna571[/usermention] said. I was thinking of writing something similar but didn’t want it to sound like a lecture. They’ve got the balance better than my draft that I deleted.

I particularly agree with the point that we can’t actually see what you’re doing. We get your somewhat negative viewpoint of your less than perfect circuits. We then start to join in commenting on your performance.

I love your posts and updates and these plus the odd pm has inspired me a lot, but I wonder if the forum is becoming your crutch. Some feedback is helpful but it can get too much and overwhelming. It sounds like you’ve found a decent instructor now. Put your faith in him and get your feedback from him. He’s really the only one who can critique what is actually going on. The rest of us can only critique your version of events.

Try this. For the next two lesson reports, tell us the good things. The positive things. Write them as if you were encouraging someone to start flying lessons. I’m not saying ignore the negatives, but just focus on the positives for a bit.

Hope this doesn’t sound too harsh. Not intended in that way. Just echoing that a lot of what [usermention=22734]@Cessna571[/usermention] makes sense to me.
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