Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

Moderator: AndyR

  • 1
  • 27
  • 28
  • 29
  • 30
  • 31
  • 144
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1852659
Duncan M wrote:Lift is provided by the wings.

You think the wings keep the nosewheel off the ground after the mains touch?
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1852666
Duncan M wrote:Either the wings or the lift fairies

Wrong on both counts.

If you're not interested in a sensible discussion about this, then please say, as I'd hate to be wasting my time.
By Duncan M
#1852670
I’m not sure what you are driving at here. I politely pointed out that your statement about allowing the aircraft to stall onto the runway was misleading on a student forum.
I’m not getting into an argument about it..

For the avoidance of doubt.
Lift is provided by the wings and pitch is controlled by the elevator.
I shall leave it there.
User avatar
By T6Harvard
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1852673
OK, back on track, ready for tomorrow's lesson.

Have revised slow flight and circuits, all relevant IAS re-committed to memory, and I drummed in pre-landing checks while MrT6 rabbitted on about something as an attempted distraction (when he mentioned a meal out I confess I nearly lost my concentration, that's for sure).

I'm looking forward to my lesson but hoping to be in Lima Bravo not Lima Delta :D
tr7v8 liked this
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1852676
Duncan M wrote:I’m not sure what you are driving at here. I politely pointed out that your statement about allowing the aircraft to stall onto the runway was misleading on a student forum.

Well you didn't say that. You asked me if I meant it, without explaining why.
I’m not getting into an argument about it..

Thank you for clarifying. You can take it that I'm not addressing any of what follows to you.

Now....

Particularly on a student forum I am very careful never to mislead. So let me clarify.

Stalling the aeroplane on to the runway absolutely should be the objective when landing. 'Holding off', ie not landing, for as long as possible, results in the airspeed decreasing, the angle of attack increasing, until the wing finally cannot support the weight of the aeroplane any more because it reaches the stalling angle.

At that point the wing stalls, and of course at that point, the aeroplane can no longer fly. If you do this at a height of a few inches, as you should, then it will 'settle' on to the runway. At the stalling angle, the lift still isn't zero, so the weight is only a little more than the lift. So the downwards acceleration isn't large, there isn't far to fall, so the landing is gentle.

Of course it's hard at the beginning to judge the height for the hold-off. If you're too high, it will bang down will more tooth-rattling than you'd like. You obviously don't want to stall it on from ten feet.

Once down, the aeroplane is now rolling along the runway with its nose well off the ground. The wings are still at a substantial angle of attack, so they cause lots of drag, so the aeroplane continues to slow down.

But what holds the nose off the ground?

Certainly not the wings!

By the time you land, you've got the stick right back, which deflects the elevator upwards. This causes a downwards force on the tailplane. This downwards force pivots the aeroplane about its main wheels, and tips the back down, and hence the nose up. When we pull back to raise the nose, what we're actually doing is pushing the tail down, which causes the nose to tip up. Just like if you sat on the tailplane on the ground, and your weight tipped the nose up.

So why does the nose eventually come down? Again, nothing to do with the wings.

As the speed decreases, the downforce from the elevator decreases, until it's no longer enough to hold the tail down. So the nose will fall. Usually not violently, but the pilot may elect to lower it gradually while there is still some remaining elevator authority.
tr7v8, T6Harvard, Cessna571 liked this
User avatar
By T6Harvard
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1852678
I appreciate the detail @TopCat . If only it all happened at, say, 5 miles an hour beside a long mirror so I could see that I was only a few inches agl as I hold off :lol:
tr7v8, TopCat liked this
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1852681
T6Harvard wrote:I appreciate the detail @TopCat . If only it all happened at, say, 5 miles an hour beside a long mirror so I could see that I was only a few inches agl as I hold off :lol:

Ah yes, I get that. If you read my posts carefully, you'll notice that I refer to 'objectives' and say things like 'as you should'.

I would advise caution before inferring that at all times I meet my own objectives, and actually do 'as I should'.

However, the objectives are worth working towards. And I get the sense that the student PPLs around here are smart, motivated, determined, and are not even remotely served by dumbing down anything at all.
T6Harvard, JAFO, tr7v8 liked this
User avatar
By tr7v8
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1852994
Well yet another lesson under my belt. 7 Landings & take offs more take offs & landings in the logbook, 3 Flapless. Despite being very warm today the circuit was very smooth. There was some wind, but not enough.There is also a lot of big trees between the M2 & 02!
Back on 02 so I was familiar having done that on Saturday, so that was good. Very busy today, Rochester was like Piccadilly Circus.
After the frustrations after Saturday today seemed to be better. Still not flaring properly & today my climb outs started OK then went to pieces as regards speed control and attitude. Circuits seemed to have been going on for ever, now 13 Hours!
So now 23 lessons & 23 hours 20mins in.
editmonkey, T6Harvard liked this
User avatar
By T6Harvard
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1852996
Sounds good @tr7v8 !

'Climbouts started OK then went to pieces'. Ha,ha, ha. I know the feeling. My debrief on Monday had a similar remark, "You started x well but then you lost concentration". In all honesty, in my case it wasn't so much losing concentration, more loosing capacity :lol:
User avatar
By editmonkey
#1853008
tr7v8 wrote:today my climb outs started OK then went to pieces as regards speed control and attitude.


I don't know about you, but I find my climb outs are great on circuits 2, 3 and 4 but as I get increasing tired I get overwhelmed with the workload and residual feeling from the landing and go-around, and have to REALLY concentrate to remember to get my flaps up. Then I start thinking, 'what have I forgotten' - and I'm suddenly at 500. Lots of critical things to remember while carefully watching the airspeed.
User avatar
By T6Harvard
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1853010
Monday's lesson was enjoyable with some frustration again. Some stuff I KNOW I can do but somehow didn't! I know it's all just basic as well. I keep reminding myself that slow and steady is OK :)

I awoke to hill fog but forecast for the airfield was acceptable, and turned out OK, although not the bright sun we had been promised.

I had refreshed climbing and descending for this revision lesson but also did a good look over the previously impenetrable circuit diagram (flying, not electrics). Good job I had because the briefing was a thorough one on the circuit with a spot test on all details, speeds, etc etc.

As I walked out to the ac I spotted an interesting visitor parked near us, a Devenport MV Escapade.

Pre and After TO checks all fine (trouble getting up to the wing tanks? Pah! that's history)

Waiting at the hold for one on Downwind there was a call from someone on 8 mile long final! One landed, no sign of the distant ac. Instructor said he'd have been here by now, no other calls, so we announced and I took off.
STILL wobbly on initial climb! Grrrr. I must say that my take off run felt much better. Have I finally got light enough and quick enough on the rudder at speed??

Lookout at approx 2,000', prepping for lefthand descending turn revealed a heli on a training sortie, well below but good to see.

Basic climbing and descending was good revision which, I am ashamed to say, was necessary :roll: It was interesting that previous skills reappeared during this part of the exercise, too. So I can now retain instructions re HDGs and heights for more than 2 seconds :D

Another aside - at the top of climb my A.P.T. actions must be getting smoother because I need to start them nearer to target now, ie the recommended 50' below at 500fpm climb whereas before it took me so long to 'think' then 'do'...

So a little capacity is building, slowly :)

Return to the circuit, on the way do a FREDA check of course. This time I was told to put carb heat on first rather than where it is in the list. Makes sense, just need to remember to add to top of checklist in my memory.

A small cloud rolled in and I was told to descend to get underneath but I was too slow so my Intructor had to get us out of it.

Then we did a couple of circuits. First one I thought I was too wide on Downwind but nope, was told it was fine. I had to decide when to turn Base and got it about right.

Remembered carb heat on, reduced power but apparently raised the nose (hmmm, this is getting to be a habit). Anyway, got within FOS and lowered 2 stages of flap, achieved 70 kts, maintained HDG 350°. Saw runway in right place and had 500'. Turned, added last stage of flap and put carb heat to cold. Instructor made the radio call for a go round, which I was anticipating from the briefing.

Approach slightly too far left of centreline, grrr. Straightened but knew we'd be going round. Got speed down but then too slow! Added power but should have lowered the nose to regain 65kts. Aggghhh. Teeing to be a dog's dinner!

Instructor waited till we were nearly over the hedge before announcing "Cows on the runway" as my practice go-round. I tried not to laugh at the unexpected phrase. A good trick eh? Throwing something slightly unexpected into the mix without it being too much to process.

Full power, right rudder, remove last stage of flap, make sure we don't gain height too quickly in case someone in overhead join! Keep right of runway for visual and clarity. All fine. I feel confident that I could get out of trouble even close in and low.

So a quick ticking off about keeping the nose level on Base turn so speed drops off before adding flaps, and trimming properly (because I'd hardly trimmed at all at some points :( ). I thought I know this but just can't get all my ducks in a row!

Final circuit seemed a bit better and certainly felt less difficult, iykwim.

A long, well controlled, taxi back on the grass (are you reading this @editmonkey ? I am clutching at straws here!)

Conclusion? Painfully slow progress but progress all the same. I'll take that.
I enjoyed it and am fascinated by this entire learning experience.
Last edited by T6Harvard on Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1853013
T6Harvard wrote:Conclusion? Painfully slow progress but progress all the same. I'll take that.
I enjoyed it and am fascinated by this entire learning experience.

Sounds like it's going in the right direction. :thumleft:

there was a call from someone on 8 mile long final!

Just for the record, you should be aware that there is a technical term for anyone doing this, especially at an A/G or AFIS airfield with traffic (and even more especially student traffic) in the circuit.

It is known as 'being a dick'.
T6Harvard, tr7v8 liked this
User avatar
By editmonkey
#1853014
T6Harvard wrote:
STILL wobbly on initial climb! Grrrr. I must say that my take off run felt much better. Have I finally got light enough and quick enough on the rudder at speed??


Yep, especially when there's turbulence. Takes me a while to get steadied - today I was much too heavy with my feet initially and it was a rocky ride up.


T6Harvard wrote:and trimming properly (because I'd hardly trimmed at all at some points :( ). I thought I know this but just can't get all my ducks in a row!


I found myself physically knackered today. Hands sweaty, back aching, and it's because I was forgetting to trim the descents and the initial climb out. So I was constantly fighting 20 degs of flap with the yoke. Is this because the brain sees trim as the least important thing (even though it's dead important)?

T6Harvard wrote:A long, well controlled, taxi back on the grass (are you reading this @editmonkey ? I am clutching at straws here!)


Not in the slightest because 1. it sounds like you had a really busy lesson consolidating some basics and doing circuits and landings and 2. I'm now a fully rehabilitated taxyer and diff brake operator. :lol:

It's all logged hours T6 and sounds like you're doing smashing. Slow progress is good progress.
Last edited by editmonkey on Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
T6Harvard, tr7v8 liked this
By Fellsteruk
#1853015
“Conclusion? Painfully slow progress but progress all the same. I'll take that.
I enjoyed it and am fascinated by this entire learning experience.”

Hey that’s all that matters, if you had fun and learnt something you did well, I had countless lessons of feeling I’d forgotten more than I did well and I think it’s apart of the process task saturation happens so easily when your learning and the littlest of things can tip you over but gets better with time and you get more space for enjoyment as the muscle memory kicks in :)

Keep sharing the progress :)
T6Harvard, tr7v8, Cessna571 liked this
  • 1
  • 27
  • 28
  • 29
  • 30
  • 31
  • 144