Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1854741
T6Harvard wrote:I enjoyed circuits today.

Nice.

Dumb question, but how are the landings? ISTR you've mentioned a few low approach and go-arounds, but not the landings.
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By T6Harvard
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1854744
Well..... only doing assisted landings atm, hence not claiming credit for them.
That tells you a lot about some of my approaches until now!
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1854755
T6Harvard wrote:Well..... only doing assisted landings atm, hence not claiming credit for them.
That tells you a lot about some of my approaches until now!

So flying round and round the circuit, hour after after, doing everything except the landings?

Is that normal teaching practice? I know nothing except my own training, and that was a long time ago, but it seems a little odd to me.

What's actually wrong with the approaches? Too fast? Too slow? Not lined up with the runway?

If you get too slow on the approach, you should either add enough power to arrest the descent, or go around. If you're too fast, there's no reason whatsoever not to still flare and hold-off, and if you're so fast you're running out of runway without touching down, go around half way down.

Has your instructor done slow flight with you? I don't mean just flying slowly and noting that the controls get a bit sloppy.

I mean slowing down from cruise speed, to a few knots above the stall, maintaining altitude by gradually raising the nose the whole time. And then gradually adding power to accelerate back to cruise speed, again maintaining altitude by gradually lowering the nose as the speed comes back up.

It's a fantastic coordination exercise that teaches control, and the deceleration part of the exercise is exactly what you'd need to do when holding off to land. And doing it first at altitude builds that control without all that horrible fear of smacking embarrassingly into the ground.

Obviously I don't know as I'm not there, but I can't help thinking that you're missing out on something in the way you're being taught. Plenty of my approaches were rubbish in the early days, but I wasn't excused the landing because of it.

More than happy to just shut up if I'm out of line here.
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By T6Harvard
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1854756
Yep, had a good lesson on slow flight previously but have actually asked to revise it in the practice area next lesson because I want the co-ordination to be more automatic and less, er, thoughtful :)

Progress is being made, and if you could see me flying sometimes you'd think that was a miracle!
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By tr7v8
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1855222
Well yet another entry for my logbook. My normal instructor which got changed at the last minute. Weather today was very benign, virtually no wind & warm & overcast. They were running late as the morning had started foggy. Chatting to another guy in the school he was on circuits as well.
So did 7 Landings & take offs, felt good, not bad made a complete fist of one which was too high, too fast. So got converted to a go around. Speed control got better each circuits after my instructor hinted that with no wind the base leg needed Idle RPM rather than my normal 1500. That got the speed under control faster on base.
Oh the other guy went solo!
Next lesson Tuesday hopefully the weather will behave.
So now 26 lessons & 26 hours 25mins in.
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By tr7v8
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1855230
T6Harvard wrote:Your turn to solo next, @tr7v8 ! Sounds like another great lesson.

I'm pining after my next lesson in 10 days time :)

Hopefully! He had done 17ish hours so you make an inevitable comparison with yourself. I openly admit I am not ready yet. How much longer I will take is anyone's guess.
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1855289
I realise that the post I'm quoting has been deleted since I started writing this reply (which is why I've left the attribution blank), but I think there are a couple of learning points that are worth keeping. So being a bit on the gobby side, I'm still posting the reply.

The event in question was a botched go-around, due IMO largely to a failure to brief properly on the part of the instructor, leading to an over-aggressive pitch up without the airspeed to sustain it. I wasn't there, so I can't say whether the instructor not taking over was a good or a bad judgement.

If you ended up just barely making it over the trees a couple of knots above the stall, what happened was this:

  • You pitched up to a very high angle of attack that also generated a lot of drag (remember, the higher the AoA, the more drag, as well as the more lift).
  • That drag stopped the aeroplane accelerating enough to achieve your normal climb speed.
  • The engine/propeller had to overcome all that drag, as well as drive the aeroplane upwards. So less of the power from the engine was available for climbing.
  • Therefore, even though the nose attitude would have been steeply up, the path through the air was in fact less steep than if you'd achieved Vx (speed for max angle).
  • Hence the uncomfortable proximity to the tree tops.

A go-around, especially one that starts from very low speed and where a max performance climb is required, is not a trivial manoeuvre if the amount of space ahead is restricted. It's similar to a takeoff, starting from about lift-off speed but with two important differences:

  • It's probably initiated with more flap (and hence more drag) than you'd want.
  • It requires a greater pitch change than a takeoff - about twice as much

Therefore the pitch-up to achieve the transition from descending to climbing flight does need a deft touch - prompt enough to get the job done but still gradual enough not to generate too much AoA too soon with all the resulting drag, while smoothly applying power and probably raising the flaps a bit. Although doing all this currently feels like being a one-armed wallpaper-hanger in a gale, it will come with practice.

Hopefully this was all covered in detail in the debrief, and all is now clear. In retrospect, a good, if alarming lesson, but not one to repeat.

What I'll comment on is this:

I'm not sure if this is good practice, but I always aim for a couple of kts over both Vy and rotation speed now as a buffer.

It's not good practice.

Adding a couple of knots to Vy as a buffer against stalling is pointless, as Vy is already 20 kt or more above the stall. This is just slow(ish) flight, which you'll gain confidence with with practice.

If you really want to climb at max rate, fly at Vy. If you want to climb with a better view over the nose, to get a better ground speed, or to keep the cylinders cool, choose an airspeed higher than Vy, and fly that. If you want to climb at max angle, to clear an obstacle, climb at Vx.

Whatever you do, it should be intentional, and for a good reason.

Adding a buffer to your "rotation speed" is also wrong for a different reason. If the aircraft is moving fast enough to fly, get it off the ground. It will accelerate better in the air than on the ground, as you don't have the drag from the wheels, which on grass can be substantial.

Once off the ground, you have choices. You can hold the aircraft level, and accelerate in ground effect (look it up). Or you can pitch gradually to your desired airspeed, which might be Vx to get over some trees, or Vy or more as above. But definitely not less than Vx, as your climb angle will always be worse than it could be.

Adding a buffer to your takeoff speed is also effectively holding the nose down, in order to not take off. In some aircraft (such as the Grumman AA5 series, among others), this is a Really Bad Idea, and it's really not a habit to get into. Crashing on take off with the engine performing perfectly is generally reckoned to be Very Bad Form.

If you have ambitions to fly well, the only habit to aim for is to fly the aeroplane correctly.

Applying bad technique to compensate for lack of current finesse is going to hinder you, not help you - the finesse will come anyway with practice, and then you'll need to unlearn those compensatory techniques. Or worse, fail to unlearn them :shock:
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By T6Harvard
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1855322
Ah ha! @TopCat - this 》》》 I can do!
"Therefore the pitch-up to achieve the transition from descending to climbing flight does need a deft touch - prompt enough to get the job done but still gradual enough not to generate too much AoA too soon with all the resulting drag, while smoothly applying power and probably raising the flaps a bit. "

Lots of light aircraft flying over today where I am staying temporarily -they are on the way back from Lamb Holm I think. They've had a beautiful day for it.
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By tcc1000
#1855441
Crash one wrote:My version of “accuracy”

Image


Accuracy of track over the ground is nearly all about landmarks. As a student you can work all these out if your instructor hasn't mentioned them already. You still have to find them and aim correctly (compensating for wind) of course, but if you haven't got landmarks then don't expect ground track to be accurate. Of course if you are adjusting for varying wind conditions, traffic, your speed/height at the time then ground track may not matter - although avoiding areas for noise abatement is good airmanship.
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By Crash one
#1855513
I was being a bit flippant/tongue in cheek, sorry.
I’ve been based there for 15 years, I was trying to tighten them up a bit after long layoffs.
Downwind between the nearest two turbines, start the turn at the crossroads etc.
I’ve also figured out that at the best rate of climb in my aircraft, I can only just reach 1000ft circuit height at the point of turning base/final without upsetting the church goers at Carnbee on a Sunday. :D
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By lobstaboy
#1855520
tcc1000 wrote:
Accuracy of track over the ground is nearly all about landmarks. As a student you can work all these out if your instructor hasn't mentioned them already. You still have to find them and aim correctly (compensating for wind) of course, but if you haven't got landmarks then don't expect ground track to be accurate. Of course if you are adjusting for varying wind conditions, traffic, your speed/height at the time then ground track may not matter - although avoiding areas for noise abatement is good airmanship.


What your instructor should be doing is telling you to ignore landmarks and to judge your circuit be reference to angles and the picture of the runway. You have to do it that way or
-you can't properly compensate for aeroplanes that perform differently
- you'll never be able to land anywhere else
- you'll have to learn those skills anyway when doing practice forced landings

The only reason for needing an accurate ground track is to avoid noise sensitive areas and not to be so far away that other folk have no chance of knowing where you are.
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By T6Harvard
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1855525
Yes, @lobstaboy , that is exactly what my Instructor said.

(I still had one eye on the distinctive house for turning Base though, but shush............ don't tell him I can't judge a 30° angle behind me yet :wink: )
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By UncleT
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1855576
lobstaboy wrote:What your instructor should be doing is telling you to ignore landmarks and to judge your circuit be reference to angles and the picture of the runway. You have to do it that way or
-you can't properly compensate for aeroplanes that perform differently
- you'll never be able to land anywhere else
- you'll have to learn those skills anyway when doing practice forced landings

The only reason for needing an accurate ground track is to avoid noise sensitive areas and not to be so far away that other folk have no chance of knowing where you are.


There seem these days to be so many airfields with special noise abatement procedures and circuits that what you state as the exception may be at least as common as being able to fly by judgement of angles and a visual picture of the runway.

I do agree that if a student learns to fly at one airfield by reference to local landmarks then it may subsequently be more difficult, initially at least, for them to land at other fields where they don't have those landmarks. Although, for fields with published circuits, they could look them up on-line and learn the landmarks in advance from Google Earth or other satellite mapping apps.
By Crash one
#1855679
Most students where I was taught were told initially to “turn left at the building with the red doors!”
But very soon were taught to go by angles. It’s very difficult, I would think, to separate the two when it’s the only runway you’ve ever seen, yet.
God help us if someone paints those doors blue!
NOTAM. (Pilots be advised that ‘Fife Fabrications’ doors are now blue until further notice!) :D
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