[Harry Brown]

posting.php?mode=edit&f=5&t=111110&p=1672041#

[Harry Brown]

Are you sure I 've got a copy right in front of me and it states page 43 " The prime purpose of the navigation training is to teach the student to navigate without the use of GPS"

Seems like Integration didnt get integrated

[KeithM]

Harry, thanks for that.

I always read accident reports with great interest. They are always educational.

Off thread, perhaps, but this is the second report I've seen recently where possible PA28 alternator failure has featured and I usually fly PA28s. It has certainly got my attention and served as a prompt to be especially thorough with in flight checks especially given the position of the PA28 ammeter! Had a "low volt" warning come up twice in a 152 many years ago, on my qualifying cross country! Recycling the switch cured it both times before the fault disappeared.

I never cease to be amazed by the number of pilots, especially rusty or inexperienced pilots, who take flights in 50/50 conditions, or worse, and without thorough planning or virtually none at all. I just don't understand it.

As for putting everything on an I-pad, as some seem to do, no comment!

I'm totally happy with a marked chart, A5 written flight log, watch and pencil and everything else as an aid, including a fully charged Icom transceiver, just in case!

Life is too short as it is, especially, in my case, for any aspirations of becoming a commercial pilot!

[Harry Brown]

Technically the PA28 has a LOADMETER not an ammeter, hence the CAA insisting they are fitted with Low Voltage Lights

[Harry Brown]

Technically the PA28 has a LOADMETER not an ammeter, hence the CAA insisting they are fitted with Low Voltage Lights

Something to think about when recycling the Alternator Switch after the low voltage light has been on for a while you will be putting the full alternator output into the battery

[lobstaboy]

Are you sure I 've got a copy right in front of me and it states page 43 " The prime purpose of the navigation training is to teach the student to navigate without the use of GPS"
.

"The prime purpose of the navigation training is to teach the student to
navigate without the use of GPS enabled devices.
The student must have demonstrated competence and have successfully flown a
dual navigation exercise without the use of such devices prior to his/her first solo
navigation exercise. If the aircraft used for training is fitted with such devices, or they
are carried, the student must be taught their proper use, after which they may be
used – including during the solo navigation training.
So, there you have it. Map/compass/watch Navigation must still be taught and the
student must demonstrate competence in a dual flight. After that, GPS can be used"


...then later...


"USE OF GPS ENABLED DEVICES
This syllabus recognises the value of GPS enabled devices as a navigation aid.
Correct use of a GPS can potentially reduce cockpit workload and help avoid
airspace infringements. However, due to their potential operational limitations they
should not be used as the sole navigational tool.
This means that conventional mapwork must still be used in conjunction with GPS."


Which is basically what I said, I think? Its also what I believe is the correct approach and is how I've been teaching for several years.

[KeithM]

The other issue I have with navigation software, especially for newly minted and/or over confident pilots, is the likely temptation to take on flights that might otherwise be rejected.

In such cases, rather than enhancing safety, there is a danger of it doing precisely the reverse.

I would bet that it has, indeed, caused a few accidents and almost certainly a number of close shaves.

[KeithM]

Technically the PA28 has a LOADMETER not an ammeter, hence the CAA insisting they are fitted with Low Voltage Lights

Something to think about when recycling the Alternator Switch after the low voltage light has been on for a while you will be putting the full alternator output into the battery

Could you expand on that?

Presumably you mean that any recycling should be done promptly to reduce the battery discharge?

[Harry Brown]

A large charge rate increases battery temperature and can shorten the life of a battery. Yes it should be done as soon as you spot it but I seem to remember the lights are way over on the right hand side of the panel. The whole thing about recycling CBs in the air (and therefore Alternators too) was reassesed several years ago and it goes like this.

When something trips it trips for a reason, do you want to discover that reason in the air or on the ground?

[KeithM]

A large charge rate increases battery temperature and can shorten the life of a battery. Yes it should be done as soon as you spot it but I seem to remember the lights are way over on the right hand side of the panel. The whole thing about recycling CBs in the air (and therefore Alternators too) was reassesed several years ago and it goes like this.

When something trips it trips for a reason, do you want to discover that reason in the air or on the ground?

Yep, thought so. I'm a retired sparky!

As a sparky, I have always had reservations about resetting aircraft CB's!

I totally agree with the above "mantra".

[Harry Brown]

The accident that changed everyones minds was where they got a wiring fire inside the cockpit lining and couldnt put out it out and tbe a/c was destroyed. If anyone can quote that accident it would be good

[SimFlyer]

@KeithM:
I do like to have the skill of DR, old-school flying. I do have a good sense of direction and generally rely less on GPS navigation for driving than some of my friends and family, so it'll be cool if that'll translate to flying too. I've found that it helps me in my sim flights so we'll have to see if it translates well into reality.

As for pilot and glamour, I'm not in it for that. Otherwise, I'd not even consider changing careers at this point.

@Harry Brown:
Always interesting in reading about what others have done wrong and reflecting on how I can avoid that myself. A pity that a lot of these lessons are earned through blood.


I think we've deviated quite a bit from the original purpose of this thread to just a slight nudge back in that direction. I've compiled my list of questions now and due to weather, I've not visited the schools just yet. Would it make sense to wait for flying weather to visit a school? I would assume so, so as to speak to instructors and students, but would a non-flying day also be good to meet instructors and students and even better, they're not fixing to fly so maybe they'll be in more of a mood to talk?

[cockney steve]

^^^^^^^^^^^ I know of at least 2 small "one man band" schools, where , if the weather's bad, they stay at home for the day!.....In the case of salaried employees, it may be different. Of course, there's the problem of canx lessons due weather which means that the established student-base will probably be fitted in to any spare slots on good days. (that pre-supposes they can find students able to accept , of course.)

They must have a difficult juggling act.
(I remember learning to drive, employer allowed time off work, which speeded training, but cost me lost wages as well as lessons......the upside was qualifying quicker and I was then able to act as a relief -driver, which took me all over the country. In those days, petrol companies issued maps and I found the Mobil ones to suit me.....under ten bob (50p) to cover the whole UK! )

Regarding the battery-charging........In case of a "low" battery, the alternator output will supply the load, as well as any surplus output going to charge the battery. Output is regulated ,specifically to make sure the battery does not overheat, boil the electrolyte, buckle the plates, split the case or shed the active paste from the plates. If your battery gets warm to the touch at normal ambient temperatures, you need to check that the voltage in the system is below 14.4 for a "12 v" system (14.2 across the battery terminals) This also applies to gel and "leakproof " (varley?)fibreglass-packed cells.

Needless to say, too-high an overvoltage will givereally bright, short lives to filament -bulbs and is likely to "fry" expensive Avionics.

Apologies, SF, for thread- drift (par for the course here) (the "up their own a** " Prune sky-gods don't tend to come here, only the good-guys )

[Harry Brown]

^^^^^^^^^^^
If your battery gets warm to the touch at normal ambient temperatures, you need to check that the voltage in the system is below 14.4 for a "12 v" system (14.2 across the battery terminals) This also applies to gel and "leakproof " (varley?)fibreglass-packed cells.

You need pretty long arms at 2000 ft to make a tactile check of the battery condition.

Batteries towards the end of their useful life can easily boil even with normal charging rates. Ive had it happen once pretty scary

[cockney steve]

Internal resistance of a lead-acid battery will normally go up with age, due to sulphation. If plates do not have good separators and they buckle and short-out, then the battery is unlikely to have sufficient voltage to start an aircraft piston-engine. A sulphated battery will have a good proportion of it's nominal capacity retained, but unable to deliver it rapidly enough to swing an engine...... Have observed how a tired battery cranks a prop round and it rapidly slows , to creep over TDC, whereupon a good impulse-mag will hopefully fire a cylinder and away you go. One would assume you'd check a suspect battery/charging system before launching. I did chance upon a Bosch alty , (the sort with the brushes and regulator in a box screwed to the back casting with 2 screws) which had failed full-field and the owner ignored the smell of a boiled battery.....the whole underbonnet area was smothered in dried electrolyte and the battery was bone dry... V-8 Mercedes it even ate the plug-leads and rubber boots.
(but that punched -out over 30 v, off load and at moderate revs! ) you must have been very unlucky to
Never ever had a battery boil under normal charge-rates, that's why a flat battery will NOT fully re-charge with an alternator....an external charger will deliver more than a regulated Alternator 14.2v, and thus deep-charge (double figures for a 24v system! ) You were very, very unlucky to have one on a properly functioning system, that got hot enough to boil.