[Ant379]

Hi, All

I have just joined this forum clearly because of my interest in learning to fly. Now, almost 40, I wouldn't say this is something that has just sprung to mind but rather a burning desire since I was at school.

In my school years and even up until I was about 28-29, I spent a lot of time on Microsoft Flight Simulator so my knowledge of flying a plane isn't a blank canvas.

Although apart from paragliding that I turned out to be absolutely rubbish at gauged by a couple of nasty accidents, this will be my second attempt at taking to the skies. Come early next year, I am looking at doing my PPL.

With the above said, I have the prospect of obtaining my PPL. I would even go as far as being interested in VFR / IFR & Night Flying training modules. The reasons I want to fly are given below:

1. Pure passion for wanting to fly.
2. Recreational flying.
3. Go on long weekends away with my fiancé and two young son's
4. Even go on holidays within Europe where we can

Although point 1 & 2 above is quite standard, am I dreaming to much about the prospect of learning to fly so I can go abroad with my family on long breaks etc or do you guys do this?

Couple of questions I want to ask are:

1. Can you hire planes for points 3/4 for days at a time to hop aboard etc?
2. Do many of you guys use your planes for this sort of stuff?
3. Do you own your planes / in a syndicate so you can do the above?

I have read that (for example) an owned plane (Piper P28) would set you back on running costs of £10k per year. Is this correct? It will be interesting to know how many of you own your own planes. Looking at the second hand market, you can get them as cheap as £45k (ish)

I am gathering all of this information because one day, I may just buy one of these planes, but in the meantime, I would be appreciative of any feedback on my comments.

Many thanks

Anthony

[Dave W]

@Ant379, welcome! I've moved your thread to the Students' Forum.

[johnm]

Welcome, @Ant379 if you give us a clue where you are I'm sure there'll be folk who can help and guide you to suitable schools and in due course aircraft hire operators and syndicates.

I had a PA28 for several years and went all over Europe in it and your budget is in the right ball park, though a little optimistic.

I now belong to a syndicate that runs a TB 20 which I have flown to Venice and back.

[Rob P]

Some renters will happily allow you to take an aircraft away for several days. But usually you will be charged for two or three hours flying at full rate every day, even when the aircraft stays on the ground, so in truth owning a share in an aircraft better meets your aspirations.

And welcome

Rob P

[Ant379]

Hi, @johnm Good evening, I am based near Preston, Lancashire. I know there is WestAir Flying in Blackpool and also Manchester Flight Training at Barton, Manchester. (If their are others in the vicinity, i'd love to know. I also believe Manchester Flight Training have a PA28. I am unsure about WestAir at this time.

Thanks for mentioning about the annual budget, all input is much appreciated. I read something late last night that the costs where £10k though I couldn't say where because I visited that many web pages.

All I am trying to find out are true costs for a realistic view after I have a licence.

Many Thanks

Anthony


Hi, @Rob P Good evening, I think for the first part, I will be massively interested in learning to fly, get my PPL and I am also interested in IFR / Night Flying. From there, I would be looking at consolidating my training, grow my confidence in a rented plane then maybe look at entering a syndicate. If the cost of a plane and its running cost is achievable, I may consider purchasing a second hand plane.

All the above is my wish and thought of how I see it panning out, if it appears massive expense, a Syndicate maybe the way forward though I would need to look at the rules of entering and exiting these syndicates but this isn't a priority at the moment - lets get the PPL done first

Many thanks

Anthony

[johnm]

I f you are near Preston, then don't discount Liverpool as a possible source of training.

[Ant379]

@johnm I did consider Liverpool for a swift moment. I think the method of my madness was to choose a training school that could be home to my future career as a recreational pilot. Therefore if I am in a syndicate, or have my own, I would return there all the time. With that in mind, I considered a school at an airport that is close enough, easy to get to and appealing in most ways.

If my priorities are wrong, please say.

[PeteSpencer]

Concentrate on getting your PPL first, then get another 50+ hours under your belt before you start thinking IFR and Night.

Then try renting a few different types (PA 28 seems to figure on your list as well as C152/172) before thinking of ownership.

There is a figure (25 from memory) of hours flown per year (though someone will be along to correct me) above which owner ship wins over renting.

As for sole ownership vs syndicate: I always imagined I earned a pretty good wad but I don't think with other expenses (school fees, holidays x2 per year) I could have ever solely owned an a/c and kept 'er indoors onside.

I was 48 when I did the PPL: 'er indoors bought me a trial lesson, I loved it so much I signed up on landing and six months later, through the mildest winter for donkey's years I had my PPL.

As it is , I've been in a PA28Arrow syndicate for 22 years and have loved every minute: 6-7 member group, no rules, minimal guidelines and loadsa common sense: No problems re availability and trips away to near Europe a-plenty.

And of course with all costs divided by 7 Its pretty affordable.

Of course if you're loaded then disregard the last paragraph.

I can however only speak of what I know, and I will let others sing the praises of LAA permit aircraft, the NPPL etc etc.

Whatever you choose good luck, and BTW welcome to the Forum: Over here on Studes there is no such thing as a daft question, no flaming is allowed and people are polite to each other.

Unlike over on the other forums.

So, don't be shy, ask away and get going with the training: Buy a logbook early on and try a few clubs: enter the 'trial lessons in the logbook', they all count towards your PPL (or whatever) hours total.

Also a good move to get the medical sorted sooner rather than later , especially if you might have the odd problem. There are excellent AMEs on here who can give you guidance.

Peter

[Rob P]

There is a figure (25 from memory) of hours flown per year (though someone will be along to correct me) above which owner ship wins over renting.

As for sole ownership vs syndicate: I always imagined I earned a pretty good wad but I don't think with other expenses (school fees, holidays x2 per year) I could have ever solely owned an a/c and kept 'er indoors onside.

Two things here. The 25 hours Peter speaks of is purely a financial metric. Owning your own aircraft or a share is quailtively streets ahead and worth a lot extra expenditure, despite the fact it generally isn't a lot extra.

Peter's aircraft is CAA. Permit aircraft are hugely more affordable and in many aspects superior.

Rob P

[Ant379]

Hi, @PeteSpencer agreed. I probably should have put a time frame on my message in the first instance.

Generally, I would use 2019 as a training year. First do my PPL and then consolidation / confidence before moving onto IFR. I like your suggestion about trying a few flying schools for taster flights to get a feel for the various centres / aircraft. Spending £500 - £700 on this is nothing in the scheme of things. It will also allow me to get a feel for which plane I like as well.

The reason I have referred to the Piper PA28 is because I like to have the wings below me as opposed to on the top like a Cessna 150 / 172. don't know what it is, I'm just not drawn to them. :roll:

I think once a PPL is out the way and I am flying confidently, I'll then have a decision made for me whether owning / part owning a plane is right for me or if I would just prefer to rent a plane to go for a ride.

As for financial cost, I think this will pan out one way or another. Currently, I'm a director of my own business. I work stupid hours for a handsome wage. It's got to the point now where I do 9 hours at work then continue to work in an evening from 7pm-12am for 3 - 4 nights a week is just stupid and over ruling my life.
With two little boys, I want to enjoy them more and need to reduce my work load by bringing someone else in for a slightly lesser wage to increase my home life.

As you say, you still need to live beyond the cost of a plane so I am sure the answer will be obvious when I have more in-depth knowledge about all this.

I am glad you have told me you loved your PA28 Arrow. I am sure being in a syndicate isn't as conflicting as I imagine. (I expected the schedule to be booked up all the time). It's also good you can all enjoy the aircraft for trips away as well.

Thank you for your welcoming answers to my questions. It's also good to know everyone is respectful.

As soon as I am confirmed to start flying, i'll get a log book and as soon as I start my PPL, i'll get all of my reading literature as well.

Thanks regarding the medical tip. How long is the medical valid for?

Cheers, Anthony


Hi, @Rob P . Thanks for this mention. I am sure owning / part owning an aircraft is an amazing feeling and gives so much freedom.

Is their a website or something where it can tell you there running costs of different types of aircraft?

I found such info for a Piper Seneca. This is what it stated in 'Scandinavian Prices' (Of all prices)

Fixed Cost
Hanger: 6,000
Insurance: 12,500
Airworthiness Review Certificate & CAMO: 4,000
Jeppesen Subscription: 4,000
200hr or Annual Inspection: 3,500
TOTAL: 30000

Direct Operating Costs:
Fuel: 90L / Hr @ 3.11 per litre = 280
Lubricants: 3
Parts / Engine / Airframe / Avionics: 45
Maintenance - per hour: 70
Engine Restoration - Engine Overhaul - 1800hrs : 105
Propeller Allowance. - Prop Overhaul - 2000hrs or 6 years: 7.5
TOTAL: 510.50

Excludes VAT, Europe Control Frees, Airport Fees, Handling Charges

Given we are comparing this to the Norwegian NOK, I work this out to be £2,813.00 + £50/hr of flying.

(This seems extremely cheap - I must be missing something but I copied it off a screenshot from europeanaircraftsales.com)

What is the difference of a CAA aircraft and a Permit Aircraft - (presuming CAA is referring to the Civil Aviation Authority ?

Thanks in advance.

[Paul_Sengupta]

Those prices look to be in Euros, not NOK.

[Ant379]

@Paul_Sengupta Here you go, this is where I found it:

https://europeanaircraftsales.com/wp-co ... -costs.pdf

[Morten]

Hi Ant - welcome to the forum indeed.

Your wishlist looks about right for quite a few here, I'd imagine and nothing which you shouldn't be able to do, so go for it

But (there's always one of those ) some short points:
- Start your PPL and see what your appetite is once you've done a bit of flying. Whereas everything you want to do is feasible, don't commit to anything as your tastes may expand (or constrict) when you have seen and done a bit more.
- Plenty of people will say that you should probably not plan to rely on a GA aircraft, license and airfields to get to and from somewhere, you will realistically not be able to get to places on the date you planned - nor necessarily to the place you wanted. Which is not a problem if you like flying, but can be a problem if you have constraints outside the flights themselves.
- Renting/ownership/group - really a horses for courses question. I think that many people have a sort of annual budget in their head which they will spend. if they find out that shared ownership works for their brief, they will still spend that same budget but just fly more. And vice versa. As @Rob P says, financials are only part of the equation. You rightly list passion for flying top of your list, so you should continue to make as many as possible choices with your heart, not with your wallet. Having said that, I think that the flexibility of renting early on gives you the ability to really try as broad a spectrum of missions/aircraft etc. before you make longer term commitments.
- Annual costs. Again horse/course dependent. Judging by past threads on here some people fly for nothing, in a homebuilt aircraft sipping the fumes off oily rags from of a farm strip they pay for by weeding twice a year - it really is very impressive. Others spend (way) upwards of the 10k you quote per year - I've seen quotes for hangarage alone which would leave you very little for fuel on the 10k budget, never mind maintenance, insurance, engine fund etc... If you want to push the ability to reliably get places beyond VFR short trips, the aircraft you'll be flying is unlikely to be of the homebuilt/smelly rag type and I'd guesstimate that a e.g. 10k budget would give you somewhere around 50-75 flying hours per year in machines similar to the PA28 as a sole owner - which would be very close to what you would pay for rental.

And just to second the suggestion to get a couple of lessons from different schools before you commit. The hours can count toward your minimum requirement as well, so they are not 'lost'. Regardless, the 45 hours are not a magical number and the license itself is just one (large!) step on the way to becoming confident and competent - you will fly quite a lot solo before you get and continue making silly mistakes for a long time afterwards...

Those prices look to be in Euros, not NOK.

Incredible as it may sound, Norway is cheaper than the UK w.r.t. aircraft rental and operational costs. Not quite US prices, but close. Honestly.
But even in Norway you will not find fuel for 3.11 NOK per litre and I doubt you'd find hangarage for 6,000. But EUR 12500 for insurance?

I think you'd be better off using the same categories and filling in with better numbers - in GBP Fuel prices are listed on the forum, insurance quotes you can get online and past threads will give you some idea of maintenance costs, ditto fuel flow.

Whatever you do, have fun - and let us know how you're doing

[Paul_Sengupta]

@Paul_Sengupta Here you go, this is where I found it:

https://europeanaircraftsales.com/wp-co ... -costs.pdf

Ah, US dollars then.

[PeteSpencer]

Hi Anthony:

I know so little about permit aircraft that I won't knock them or criticise their shortcomings.

What I will say is that our Group CAA Arrow allows me with the PPL/IR rating I obtained age 67 and the more recent PBN sign off (It's late, you'll have to google that), to fly airways all over Europe with few limitations (I don't have de-icing), which at the moment few if any Permit a/c can.

It's a case of horses for courses, I prefer my aircraft factory built with long positive track records.

As for medicals :again, I will describe that which I know. (others can talk about LAPL privileges , self declarations etc.
Unless your ultimate plan is to get a commercial pilots licence and fly for an airline, in which case there are those who say you should go for successfully getting a Class 1 medical before you commit large sums of money to training, a class 2 would seem prudent.

f recreation is your bent, the class 2 medical validity depends on your age at medical exam.
Under age 40 it's valid 60 months unless issued prior to your 40th birthday in which case it's valid 24 months, until 42nd birthday.
From age 40-49 it's valid 24 months (12 months if issued just before 50th birthday) -are you with me so far?
From 50 onwards its annually.
Also ECG due with first exam after 40th birthday and 2 yearly from 50 onwards.

(My annual medical now after many years pans out at c. £180 per year, as for the IR I alternate ECG with audiogram.)

Having your medical 'under your belt' simplifies matters when you are allowed to go solo.Your medical history is important.
A simple febrile convulsion as a 6 month old baby is virtually par for the course: however it has been known to result in almost £1k of private medical fees and investigations: Draw your own conclusions.

FD is a good opinion on here for all things AMEish.

Regards
Peter