[NewFlyer78]

Hi all,

I have recently started my PPL and have completed a trail flight plus 4 lessons totalling 4.5hrs flying time. I’ve had 3 instructors so far and am concerned that my rate of progress is rather slow despite the instructors all telling me my understanding is more advanced than most students due to my degree in Aero degree and past sim experience.

When I look on you tube, there are many videos of students doing takeoffs and starting circuit work in the early lessons, yet I am having to do the basics each lesson. All I have covered so far are the controls, use of flaps, basic taxying, preflight checks, level flight at diff speeds. It’s seems like my flying school is following a training guide rather than training to my abilities. I don’t think I have struggled with any of the exercises so far as I pretty much get it right first time. Not trying to be over confident.

My concern is that by the time we have done all the checks, taken off and the instructor has flown us to the designated training airspace, we only get a 15 mins or so for my hands on work before instructor flies us back to base.

I wanted the check whether this is normal and the you tube vids are overly optimistic?

Many thanks.




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[Merlin83b]

At 4.5 hours. I'm sorry to say it but you've still got a pretty long way to go! Don't be disheartened, but perhaps look to stay with the same instructor - having a new one each time means they don't know you and your skills so will need to assess them for themselves. If you can book with the same one, they'll know if you can do levelling off etc. so add turns into that and you can do the flying to/from the local practice area in addition to the flying there.

Stick at it and things will all start to click - before long you'll find the instructor is just telling you what to do rather than having to do much of it, but early on they will be more hands on

[leiafee]

My logbook informs me that I started into the circuit work at somewhere between 7 and 8 hours (including skipping one general handling thing we did the next time because there wasn't the required cloudbase when we'd originally planned).

I wouldn't worry.

In any case having the basics solid will make the circuit work a ton less stressful. There's so much to concentrate on that it really makes things difficult when basic stuff like "keeping at the same height downwind and rolling out on the right heading when changing direction and at the same height" still need a little conscious thought or further practice (which I definitely did in spite of being able to demonstrate it at altitude at the point we went onto circuit)

[NewFlyer78]

Thank you all for the reassuring advice. I will try and stick to the same instructor and get the solid foundations in place.


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[David Wood]

NF78, without knowing where you are training and who is teaching you it isn't possible to give an informed view on this. I would offer the following observations, however, which you can take or leave as you like.

Firstly, the initial lessons are VERY important and are often skimped over as FIs and students try to get on to 'more interesting' stuff. My advice would be that unless these foundation skills are really nailed then progressing too early can be a mistake. So what may seem like slow progress may be useful foundation skill building;

Secondly, I find that students who have spent too long using PC-based sims often need to un-learn quite a lot before they can really start to learn. I don't know if that applies to you.

That said, even in the early lessons you should be doing most of the flying. Depending on the student of course, I like to get my students performing the take-off as early as the second or third trip (with me following through, of course) and performing the landings (as above) not long thereafter. Similarly, from Ex 6 (straight and level) onwards you really ought to be flying (hands on the controls, practicing what you've been taught) for 70-90% of each trip IMHO with the FI only taking control when he wants to show you things or explain things to you. If you aren't then there is either something peculiar about the circumstances of your training or your FI isn't doing it right.

[ArrowStraight]

The flight training exercises are in an order for a reason. Jumping too far forward can set you back. You learn to fly in exercises 1 through 11, learn to take off and land 12/13, although there has to be some flexibility. What has been said already is correct, spend the right amount of time getting the basics off pat and the rest will not be so difficult.
It's a well honed system, based largely on RAF practice.

[TopCat]

My concern is that by the time we have done all the checks, taken off and the instructor has flown us to the designated training airspace, we only get a 15 mins or so for my hands on work before instructor flies us back to base.

Instructor flies you there and back, you get 15 minutes hands on per hour of flying? This doesn't sound right to me at all.

Even doing the exercises in the right order shouldn't preclude spending most of the time doing the handling. So what if you haven't got to the climbing exercise? It's not exactly hard. Dammit, even my passengers often get more than 15 minutes hands on.

My instructor was "follow through on the controls with me" for the first couple of take-offs, after which I was doing it; then before I got into the circuit I was following through on the first few landings, and then doing it with him following through, but other than that I was doing all the flying.

The only thing that changed once I got into the circuit was he made me memorise the downwind checks beforehand, and prove to him that I knew them.

[CapnM]

My concern is that by the time we have done all the checks, taken off and the instructor has flown us to the designated training airspace, we only get a 15 mins or so for my hands on work before instructor flies us back to base.

I would be raising a concern about this. I understand each school/instructor may have a set way of teaching the syllabus but if you're only getting hands on the controls for 15 minutes then I'd be very concerned. Were all 3 of the instructors teaching that way?

Looking at my log book, I did my first take off at just under 4 hours, first landing at just under 6, started circuits around 8-9 (I still had general handling exercises to complete after this, so this was probably dictated by the weather). So for a 1 hour block, I was probably hands-on for a minimum of 45 minutes from around the 4th hour of flying.

[cotterpot]

TC

memorise the downwind checks

They are actually pre landing checks, but as you are doing circuits the only suitable place to do them is on downwind leg and hence they get that name.

When you venture away from the circuit the prelanding checks can be carried out as you approach the airfield so giving you more time for lookout and flying circuit accurately.

[NewFlyer78]

Something I didn’t mention was that for the lessons I was concerned about the instructor was very new and told me he only got his FI rating 1 month ago. He was trying his best but I don’t think I got the most out of those lessons.


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[WelshRichy]

An instructor straight out of the very intensive instructor course which ends with a very stringent six-hour plus Assessment of Competency isn't necessarily a bad instructor. Yes, they may not have the experience of someone instructing for twenty plus years but they are still deemed capable and with time will find their own way.

The new instructor will have his rating restricted and will be under the wing of and coached by an unrestricted instructor who has a lot more experience and will remain restricted until certain conditions are met, i.e. 25 student solos being signed off (not first solos), 100 hours instruction etc.

Looking back twenty years ago my logbook shows I was a relatively slow learner:

30 min - Trial Lesson
1 hr - Ex 4(i)
1 hr - Ex 4(ii), 5
1 hr - Ex 4, 5, 6
1 hr - Ex 6, 7, 8
1 hr - Ex 9
1 hr - Ex 10A & B (Slow Flight and Stalling)
1 hr - Ex 10A & B (Slow Flight and Stalling)
1 hr - Ex 12 & 13 (Circuits)

So it looks like it took me 7.5 hours before going into circuits and then another 12 hours before going solo (landings were not my strong point but I got there in the end).

If you're only actually flying for fifteen minutes that doesn't sound right but of course we don't know the whole picture.

From my experience, my instructor had me doing the radio from the very first lesson, just little bits at a time (we were at a Class D airport) and by the time I got into the circuit I was doing most of the radio work and only jumped in if I had missed a radio call or stuffed it up more to the point! On the first lesson he showed me the walk around, thereafter it was my responsibility, whether an A check or otherwise (he would always check the fuel and oil though before joining me in the aircraft where I was already to go).

The first couple of lessons he had me following him through on the controls from take-off to landing if I wasn't flying the aircraft myself. My first take-off was probably a couple of hours in, what a feeling that was. He planned the lesson so that it ended as we were rejoining the circuit and had me hands on flying until as late as possible and if not flying I was following through on controls again. Quite early on he talked me through the entire circuit, approach and landing although there was probably a lot (LOT!) of input from the right seat when it mattered!

By comparison my wife had a 15 hour course paid for by her work and went solo after 4 hours. She did experience the "oh %^& I need to land this" moment on downwind like we all do (well I did anyway)! The rest of the time they (students) buddied up and flew across to Holland for dinner with the instructors family.

What I'm trying to say is everyone is different and absorbs things at different paces.

I would suggest trying to stick to the same instructor for continuity although the school should have records of each of your lessons with the outcomes written down and debriefed with you after each lesson. This allows your next instructor should be able to refer to the notes from your last lesson.

Enjoy it! It's not a race to the end. Don't try to rush progress, it will come and you'll be doing your first solo in no time at all. You are currently going through the foundation basics that will serve you throughout your flying career, whatever your goals are, take whatever time it needs to be.

[Cessna57]

Out of interest, do you have the course book?

Are you reading each lesson before the lesson and self briefing. Sure, it seems slow at first, but it’s really important that you understand things like secondary effects of controls. Angle of attack, how to fly very slow etc.

The drag curve for instance, you can fly very very slow by getting to the back of the drag curve and using full throttle, but you must know how to get back out of the back of the drag curve. (!) and know all about the drag curve.

It all seems very slow progress at first, and a bit noddy till you realise how much you are learning that you didn’t know, (or thought you knew, I spent years playing flying games without rudder pedals, never knew anything about balanced turns until I started training to actually fly), but having said that, I’d expect you to be doing a lot of the flying.

If you are getting full pre lesson briefings, and you are preparing yourself before that briefing, I’d worry about 15 mins hands on.

Make sure you pre brief each lesson yourself out of the book before turning up at the airfield, I can’t believe some don’t, but apparently they don’t.

[David Wood]

An instructor straight out of the very intensive instructor course which ends with a very stringent six-hour plus Assessment of Competency isn't necessarily a bad instructor. Yes, they may not have the experience of someone instructing for twenty plus years but they are still deemed capable and with time will find their own way.

The new instructor will have his rating restricted and will be under the wing of and coached by an unrestricted instructor who has a lot more experience and will remain restricted until certain conditions are met, i.e. 25 student solos being signed off (not first solos), 100 hours instruction etc.

I'd agree with that. There are good FIs and bad FIs, to be sure. But there are also FIs who are effective in teaching Student A but not so good for Student B - it's largely about human interraction. And in any event there is little correlation between effectiveness and time in the saddle, in my view. So don't be too worried that one of your FIs is relatively new.

[Balliol]

Some really good advice above. Far too many instructors rush into letting students do the take off and landing (ex 12 and 13) without it being properly taught, and these are the students we then see spending hours bashing the circuit later on with high hours to first solo. Doing things too early also encourages the horrid practice of the student being 'in control' but the FI fiddling about and putting control inputs in, which just destroys any student learning and confidence.

[francoisvl]

I did more than 15 minutes of the flying on my taster flight. So little time at the controls is the only thing I would worry about. I had a bit of a smile looking at my logbook because I did my first unassisted landing at 4 hours apparently.. given how bad they can be now, I'm not sure how that happened!