Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

Moderator: AndyR

By Reuben.CT
#1612538
Having been interested in flying from a very young age, and with aspirations of going into an aerospace-engineering career, I'm considering taking flying lessons in order to gain my light aircraft pilot's license.

Currently have only 2 dual flight hours from flying on air experience flights as part of the combined cadet force, and though I presume they wouldn't, am just curious as to whether or not these would count towards the stated necessary flying hours to gain the LAPL.

Have no medical problems so I don't think getting the medical certificate would be very difficult at all.

I'm only 16 right now and while I understand that the minimum age for acquiring an aeroplane LAPL is 17, I've read several stories of similar situations where people have taken all the required lessons, but had to wait until their 17th birthday to receive the actual qualification.

What other things should I consider if I go for this? Would likely be doing the lessons in either a Cessna 150 or a Piper Cherokee - which would you recommend I go for?
By Skylaunch2
#1612558
Reuben.CT wrote:Having been interested in flying from a very young age, and with aspirations of going into an aerospace-engineering career, I'm considering taking flying lessons in order to gain my light aircraft pilot's license.

Currently have only 2 dual flight hours from flying on air experience flights as part of the combined cadet force, and though I presume they wouldn't, am just curious as to whether or not these would count towards the stated necessary flying hours to gain the LAPL.

Have no medical problems so I don't think getting the medical certificate would be very difficult at all.

I'm only 16 right now and while I understand that the minimum age for acquiring an aeroplane LAPL is 17, I've read several stories of similar situations where people have taken all the required lessons, but had to wait until their 17th birthday to receive the actual qualification.

What other things should I consider if I go for this? Would likely be doing the lessons in either a Cessna 150 or a Piper Cherokee - which would you recommend I go for?


Firstly why LAPL not PPL?

Unless you've got medical issues or intend to keep to simple type flying I'd stay well clear of the LAPL (from experience of me having one). Yes it is slightly cheaper than the PPL but only if you complete the course in minimum time. After getting the licence you cannot carry passengers for 10 hours, and if you do suddenly want to upgrade to the PPL you have to do 15 hours more flying (including 10 hours formal training). From scratch, the LAPL is a 30 hour course, the PPL a 45 hour course.

AEF flying could only be perhaps counted if your logbook was countersigned by a qualified instructor but it's worth remembering AEF flying is effectively joyrides, it doesn't often match up to the formal EASA syllabus, that's what I found when I was a cadet a few years ago.

No brainer on the aircraft, do the training in the Cessna 150, it'll be cheaper by £20 an hour at least in most places.

Things to consider
A) Can you afford to sustain the training costs and be able to fly more than once a month sometimes, you'll be looking at £150 an hour in a Cessna.
B) Consider all training costs, books, maps, flying/written exams etc
C) Why not apply for a flying scholarship when they next open? Show your keenness, aptitude and commitment and you could find yourself being sponsored, that's how I got my licence recently.
D) Don't just consider flying SEP, a lot of people your age get to solo then can't fund the rest. Always remember there's microlights and gliding to name a few which are far cheaper, both can be just as useful to get a foot in the door to aviation and can still help you get your LAPL/PPL in the future.

Hope that helps :)
By pjl953
#1612626
I would also say go for PPL not LAPL (despite me not having experience of a LAPL, I am very happy with my PPL and didn't feel I would really have been ready to have the licence 10 hours earlier).

I started flying just before my 16th birthday, and, flying reasonably regularly, didn't do my skills test until a couple of months after my 17th, so I wouldn't worry too much about having a massive gap between end of training and skills test.

In terms of C150 vs PA28, I learnt mostly in a 152 but had a couple of lessons in Warriors when either the 152 was in engineering or when the Warrior was more useful to the lesson (like stalling, where it actually does something unlike the 152!) - I'm not sure there was masses of difference and I would recommend the 152 unless you really really want very slightly more space (which I would say is not worth the £20-30/hr extra cost). Other things to consider:
1) Cost - Flying is expensive, and I found I couldn't always fly as often as I liked as there just wasn't the money to. About a lesson a fortnight worked for me, but I would say be careful to fly regularly rather than use your flying budget as soon as you get it (i.e. have a lesson a fortnight and keep that a pattern rather than save up, have four lessons in one week then not fly for two months, as flying regularly helps with it becoming a more natural process)
2) Exams - If you are 16 you will just be doing GCSEs I imagine, so written exams may well come whilst you are still studying for education. It is important to have a balance of the two, but *DO NOT* let flying get in the way of your education, you have your entire life to fly but you only get one shot at your exams and you will regret not prioritising them (I found a happy balance but sometimes it meant not flying for a bit longer to just get the exams done, however I heard stories of people whose grades plummeted because they spent their entire time flying or studying for PPL exams they neglected school and then found themselves in a sticky situation)
3) If you can't fly for whatever reason such as lack of funds, just go to the airfield and spend the day helping other people, you will rapidly learn a lot more about the non flying side of flying and get to know other pilots who are vastly more experienced, and you'll likely be able to pick up some good advice from them about various things.
4) If you are given an opportunity, take it! Some don't come around very often and can turn out to be invaluable even if it looks like they won't be useful at all. You don't progress by not bothering!

That's all I can think of for now, but if you have any more questions feel free to ask!
Hope that helps
Peter
By pjl953
#1612630
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:@pjl953 @Skylaunch2

What actual benefit does the PPL confer over a LAPL in your everyday flying?


Having not held a LAPL I can't comment on whether there is any difference in the training, but I feel as I said like I needed the full length of PPL training to be ready (although I guess there is nothing stopping you not taking the LAPL skills test until 45 hours so that's probably irrelevant :lol: ).

The main difference for me is that you can add Instrument qualifications (and multi should I ever wish to) to a PPL but not to a LAPL - if my only interest was day/night VFR (and for my flights which are VFR) it wouldn't make any difference whatsoever, but because I am looking to pursue an IR it had to be the PPL.
By Reuben.CT
#1612662
Thanks for the replies, all the advice is much appreciated :)

For the issue of cost, I think I should be okay (spoken to parents and they think it's a pretty good idea), and though I looked into getting a flying scholarship (a friend of mine is doing one), I was past the deadline for this year by the time I was ready to apply, and I plan on taking on a lot of extra commitments next year so I'm unsure I'd have time to do all the theory work in preparation for the test. Personally, would prefer powered flight so while I'm not so sure about gliding, what sort of cost differences would you be likely to see between flying microlights vs. a standard SEP?

Time (at least this year) will likely not be a problem in terms of preparations for the exams and fitting the hours in, as I'm currently in the midst of my GCSEs, and we get an extended holiday this year as we are on 'study' leave after they're complete, so in truth I have from next week until the beginning of September to start racking up hours and working on my theory. In truth, this is the best time for me to get a bulk of the preparation work done, as once I get back I'm going to be undertaking 5 A-levels (maths, physics, further maths, german & economics), a year-long F1 in schools competition, as well as preparation for the American SATs (considering doing postgrad at hopefully somewhere like Stanford), and other stuff too. While this shouldn't impede my ability to get up in the air (I'd likely be doing it around once a fortnight, so glad to see that aligns well with what worked for others too), it would likely mean I'd have too much workload to then have theory preparations on top of that.

With the recommendation to try out helping other people out at my local airfield, I think I'll definitely look into that! I applied for work experience over the summer to help out with the engineers at Elvington Air Museum (unfortunately got turned down due to their 18+ H & S policy on those working on the aircraft), however never thought to actually go for the airfields themselves, so I might see what I can do about that - thanks for the idea. :)

With the matter of the AEFs, come to think if it I don't remember any proper paperwork being done for registering the flight time, although I'll ask at the contingent to see about that.

For LAPL vs PPL, would an LAPL maintain its validity if I were to acquire it, and then get my PPL? From what I understand, the LAPL qualification is much easier to maintain vs a PPL, what with the necessity to renew the SEP rating on a PPL biannually, so I wonder whether it would be beneficial to try to get both qualifications under my belt, just in case the situation arises that I don't have the time later on to maintain a PPL, but can for a LAPL. Would I be able to apply for both at the same time, or would that concur problems with the fact that the LAPL prohibits carrying of passengers for the first 10 hours? Also, is the syllabus for the PPL theory just building on top of the LAPL, or are there, for example, things in the LAPL tests that wouldn't be in the PPL tests?

Also, might likely be a bit of a stupid question but just want to make sure - if I earnt my PPL (with single-engine rating) on say, a C150, would the license still be applicable if I wanted to fly a turboprop like say, a PC12? Does the separate rating for single-pilot high performance aircraft only really revolve around jet aircraft in a similar class to say, a Citation, or could high-end aircraft like a PC12 also be considered to be classed under that?
By pjl953
#1612672
Reuben.CT wrote:In truth, this is the best time for me to get a bulk of the preparation work done, as once I get back I'm going to be undertaking 5 A-levels (maths, physics, further maths, german & economics), a year-long F1 in schools competition, as well as preparation for the American SATs (considering doing postgrad at hopefully somewhere like Stanford), and other stuff too.


I thought I was mad doing 4 A-levels rather than 3... :shock:

In which case perhaps more important to consider is keeping current afterwards - you still want to be able to fly reasonably regularly after you have the license and that sounds like a pretty packed schedule. Also if you are thinking of going to the US and want to fly over there it is worth bearing in mind you cannot convert a LAPL to the FAA as it is an EASA license, whereas the PPL can be converted and used in the US.

The PPL has an SEP (Single Engine Piston) restriction on it, so to fly something like a PC12 which is turbine you would need SET (Single Engine Turbine), but I have absolutely no idea how you go about doing that - someone else will know I'm sure!
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1612718
Also you cannot hold an LAPL and (EASA) PPL at the same time. You're only allowed to hold one EASA licence of this ilk.

Yes, PPL if you want to fly in the US.
By Skylaunch2
#1613097
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:@pjl953 @Skylaunch2

What actual benefit does the PPL confer over a LAPL in your everyday flying?


Ability to further your flying and have access to the variety of ratings. If the OP was taking up flying late in life and was absolutely certain that they had no further ambitions, there is nothing wrong with a LAPL. But this person in question is potentially at the start of their flying career, professional or not, I see no reason why a PPL shouldn't be recommended, there is no point doing the LAPL only to discover that you actually want to move on, so then have to pay for yet another skills test and further training, it's burning money for no good reason. As such it's no surprise that most of the scholarship providers fund young people to get full PPLs not LAPLs.
By Skylaunch2
#1613101
Reuben.CT wrote:Personally, would prefer powered flight so while I'm not so sure about gliding, what sort of cost differences would you be likely to see between flying microlights vs. a standard SEP?


You sound lucky as you are up north where the training is cheaper anyway!

Generally for a Cessna 152 with an instructor I'd be expecting to pay about £140 an hour whilst a Microlight might be closer to £100.

Don't write off Gliding, I got my first professional job in aviation flying gliders and getting a good amount of gliding experience under your belt is very useful, especially if maybe one day you then want to do some hour building for a modular CPL, you could end up kicking yourself when a gliding club puts an opportunity out there out asking for a PPL pilot with gliding experience to do 200 absolutely free hours of towing gliders whilst you have to fork out to hour build on your own back, just saying :lol: ! Your local Gliding club does special rates for people under 26, starting as cheap as just over £20 an hour.

Best of luck with your future endeavours. Keep us updated.
By cockney steve
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1613184
@Skylaunch2 You may be in for a rude awakening if you come" oop norf " The price-difference is somewhat smaller than you would hope. The advantage, of course, is that the F W Microlight is probably newer and more comfortable and probably "glass- cockpit" compared with the sluggish, tatty steam-gauge-equipped venerable spam-cans.....
Oh, and headline -rates sometimes don't include "extras" like landing-fees !

Really, as I see it, although the cost-difference for training is only a difference of maybe £20 an hour, between a Microlight F W and a Group A FW....the difference is between a new car and a vintage one. When it comes to ownership, it seems that a Microlight can be run for about 1/3 the cost of a certified C of A machine, provided you are willing to get your hands dirty and have the aptitude.
By Reuben.CT
#1613345
pjl953 wrote:I thought I was mad doing 4 A-levels rather than 3... :shock:

Aha, well the norm seems to be where I am that you typically drop a subject going from lower sixth form into the upper year, so likely that's what will be expected. Additionally, we're highly recommended to take 5 if one of them is further maths, as some people struggle with the curriculum and have to drop it, leaving them with 3 where they had the personal ability to do 4. Going to see personally - likely will drop economics in favour of self-teaching myself.

pjl953 wrote:In which case perhaps more important to consider is keeping current afterwards - you still want to be able to fly reasonably regularly after you have the license and that sounds like a pretty packed schedule. Also if you are thinking of going to the US and want to fly over there it is worth bearing in mind you cannot convert a LAPL to the FAA as it is an EASA license, whereas the PPL can be converted and used in the US.

The PPL has an SEP (Single Engine Piston) restriction on it, so to fly something like a PC12 which is turbine you would need SET (Single Engine Turbine), but I have absolutely no idea how you go about doing that - someone else will know I'm sure!


Forgot about the difference in the universality with PPL vs. LAPL - do you know what sort of procedures would there be if I wanted to convert a PPL to be FAA-approved? And yeah aha, will be quite packed, but should still be able to fit in time for relatively regular flying. :)

And ah right, realised I was looking at the classifications of the groupings of theory necessities on the ratings, rather than the actual ratings themselves ahahah - not sure there'd be much point in going for an SET rating at this point in my life, would be perhaps something to aspire to later on!

Paul_Sengupta wrote:Also you cannot hold an LAPL and (EASA) PPL at the same time. You're only allowed to hold one EASA licence of this ilk.

Was unaware of this, thanks for clearing that up - think I'm starting to lean more and more to a full PPL now.

Fair enough on gliding, I've been to the local gliding school before and it's not too far so think will keep it in mind, but all the same I think I'm still more on the side of powered flight personally. To be fair, your example of the 200 free hours certainly sounds very attractive, but I worry about whether, if an opportunity like that were to come up, as to if I could make the time for that much with everything else going on. On the other hand, with the special rates you mentioned, think I'll certainly look into that - think it's definitely worth at least having a taste of gliding - may find I enjoy it more than being in a SEP. With a CPL, while obviously circumstances and aspirations may change, I'm pretty set on the path I want to take, in terms of the fact I've got strong entrepreneurial visions with the astro-space industry, helping to commercialise space and all. :D

As for microlights vs. SEPs, I understand there's obviously the cost aspect to it, but on the other hand there's the matter of exposure to the elements with microlights (ie. more days you can fly), and personally just find the idea of flying a SEP more attractive than a microlight, although maybe I'm taking things at too much of a face value. Likelihood is, I'll be going for the pay-per-hour route, rather than outright ownership, but that may change too :)
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1613361
Reuben.CT wrote:do you know what sort of procedures would there be if I wanted to convert a PPL to be FAA-approved?


Yes. Once you have your (full) PPL, you send a form off to the CAA with a payment, for them to verify your details to the FAA. You send another form to the FAA and they contact the CAA. You will receive a letter from the FAA. Once you have this letter, you make an appointment with an FAA regional office (FSDO) or a DPE (Examiner) who will issue you a temporary licence based on your UK one. A plastic one will come through the post a couple of months later. This is known as a 61.75.

To fly in the US you then have to do a BFR (biennial flight review).

Reuben.CT wrote:As for microlights vs. SEPs, I understand there's obviously the cost aspect to it, but on the other hand there's the matter of exposure to the elements with microlights (ie. more days you can fly), and personally just find the idea of flying a SEP more attractive than a microlight


This is a microlight:



As is this:



Just for reference! :-)