Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

Moderator: AndyR

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By cadoganpier
#1605691
Today I saw something that I hope is a very isolated incident. I am currently circuit bashing at Waltham and was flying a circuit for runway 110 with the instructor prior to her getting out and sending me off. As it was pretty busy I was keeping a good look out, I then heard a call from the ground station telling the "Warrior on base turning final to watch out as there is an aircraft close inside and below you " I stopped the turn and looked over my shoulder to see a PA-28 201 no more than 100ft from me and about 30 feet below, he had made no downwind call. He then proceeded to continue on to final ( with his U/C still up). There was a Cub on the runway that had landed which we can only assume he hadn't seen ( don't know how) as he continued his approach on a direct collision course, my instructor repeatedly called him on the radio to go around and eventually when very close to the ground he did, I really thought I was going to witness a crash. We landed without incident and I did my solo circuits but it did make me think. She filed a safety report for the two separate incidents. Does this sort of thing happen a lot or was this idiot a special case? , I won't shame him here but his aircraft is based at EGLM.
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1605717
As it happens, I was flying from EGLM today also, and it was a little fraught, although I don't think that I witnessed the specific incident.

I'd be happy to talk offline about it, I don't really want to in public (simply as I find that inappropriate), but my suggestion is that you go and have a chat with the CFI. Graham is very approachable, and I think you would both benefit from having a conversation about what you felt about things today. If your FI has filed (I'm guessing within the club's internal safety management system, rather than anything external - which seems fine to me), he'll already be aware of what happened, but perhaps not of your concerns about it.

G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer on Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By cockney steve
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1605719
Look on the bright side.....You had a free demonstration of "how not to do it" :shock: ...Perhaps the frequency has changed with 8.33 and all that, and the pilot (as in the recently highlighted infringement and landing-case) was simply making wrong, blind calls?
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1605736
cadoganpier wrote:Does this sort of thing happen a lot or was this idiot a special case? , I won't shame him here but his aircraft is based at EGLM.

I can't comment on this incident, as I wasn't there today, but I've been based at White Waltham since 2001 so I've seen a few things over the years. I would say that events as bad as you describe are fairly rare. The main issues I've seen are:

- A lot of people call overhead when they are not (yet?) overhead the airfield.

- Deadside descents can sometimes be very wide. They are not supposed to be heowge wide descents taking up most of the ATZ (I exaggerate, but only a little).

Other than that, generally, I'd say circuit discipline is generally good. A/G works well, despite it being a busy field.

It might be an idea to be cautious about referring to people as idiots until, at the very least, all the facts and extenuating circumstances are known.
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1605747
It might be an idea to be cautious about referring to people as idiots until, at the very least, all the facts and extenuating circumstances are known.


Indeed, hence my reluctance to opine publicly, and suggestion of talking to the CFI. Not least because aviation is a small community and people have long memories.

G
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By A le Ron
#1605751
cadoganpier wrote:Today I saw something that I hope is a very isolated incident. I am currently circuit bashing at Waltham and was flying a circuit for runway 110 with the instructor prior to her getting out and sending me off. As it was pretty busy I was keeping a good look out, I then heard a call from the ground station telling the "Warrior on base turning final to watch out as there is an aircraft close inside and below you " I stopped the turn and looked over my shoulder to see a PA-28 201 no more than 100ft from me and about 30 feet below, he had made no downwind call. He then proceeded to continue on to final ( with his U/C still up). There was a Cub on the runway that had landed which we can only assume he hadn't seen ( don't know how) as he continued his approach on a direct collision course, my instructor repeatedly called him on the radio to go around and eventually when very close to the ground he did, I really thought I was going to witness a crash. We landed without incident and I did my solo circuits but it did make me think. She filed a safety report for the two separate incidents. Does this sort of thing happen a lot or was this idiot a special case? , I won't shame him here but his aircraft is based at EGLM.

In aviation we rely on a no-blame culture to promote safety. Please reflect.
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By JonathanB
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1605782
A le Ron wrote:In aviation we rely on a no-blame culture to promote safety. Please reflect.


Not commenting on the original post but this statement isn't true any more, it's Just Culture which is used these days.

Under “Just Culture” conditions, individuals are not blamed for ‘honest errors’, but are held accountable for wilful violations and gross negligence.
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By cadoganpier
#1605785
Genghis the Engineer wrote:
It might be an idea to be cautious about referring to people as idiots until, at the very least, all the facts and extenuating circumstances are known.


Indeed, hence my reluctance to opine publicly, and suggestion of talking to the CFI. Not least because aviation is a small community and people have long memories.

G

Hi G.
I wasn't looking to "out" anyone, hence I didn't post the registration but by the same token I haven't posted anything on here I wouldn't want the pilot of that aircraft to read, or indeed anything I wouldn't say to his face. I am not wishing to be confrontational but by implying that if I report someones bad flying I had better watch out as they may return the favour one day is a bit confusing. If the aim is to make flying safer for all is keeping things hush hush helping?. I am very new to flying but I assumed that reporting or discussing bad practice wouldn't be seen as snitching in some way.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1605786
I would also add that this display of airmanship was not just observed by a tyro (and nothing wrong with that) but also by a WW instructor.

The FI, as far as I can see, has done the right thing 1) making a radio call to avert worse and 2) asked for it to be looked into by a third party.
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By cotterpot
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1605787
I haven't posted anything on here I wouldn't want the pilot of that aircraft to read, or indeed anything I wouldn't say to his face. I


Maybe flying a circuit to runway 110 confused the pilot :wink:
By treborsnave
#1605789
To be fair to all, there was a couple of minutes of confusing calls before this event - things like "I'm final" "Sorry, downwind" and " 21. Correction 11. To land. " Maybe this was an impacting factor.
The call from the instructor - clear, calm - repeated 3 times in quick succession was timely indeed.
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By GolfHotel
#1605792
The trouble with this sort of post is we (that is the collective sky gods on the forum) cant ever really know what happened. Clearly the OP has concerns they wish to air. But equally clearly they are not very experienced. They say there were no calls downwind, but someone else says there were calls. Somehow the aircraft they saw "over my shoulder ...30ft below" was ahead and below shortly afterwards, so had priority anyway. Why didn't they go around? One would have to think the instructor had a good reason for not taking control and going around immediately. My recommendation to the OP would be talk it over with the instructor. I would be really astonished if she was not the best person, with the best handle on what actually happened. On here we don't really know what happened and any comments can only be based on what we are told. And you will still get very different opinions.

One thing you can take away is keep a very good look out in the circuit. About half of midairs happen there. So in really round numbers thats less than one a year. But there must be a lot of "too close for comfort" each year.

On the subject of "no blame" and "just culture". I was never much of a fan of no blame. To me it quickly ended up being abused as "no responsibility". To me "just culture" is a huge improvement.
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