Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

Moderator: AndyR

By JJB
#1577273
Hello everyone,

I couldn't easily find a section for new members to introduce themselves and hope posting here doesn't constitute my 'first strike'. I just joined-up today although have been hovering on the forum and checking some opinions (yes, there are plenty) over the past few months.

I left my job in April this year, prior to which I had been working without a break for 23 years. I decided to take the summer off and get my private pilot's licence, a dream I've been harbouring since childhood. I'd had two previous brushes with flying, the first when I applied to the BA training program shortly after University and the second when I got a few hours in a 152 at RAF Benson.

The BA program didn't work out when I discovered there was no kind of pay during the 70 week course and, having just got married, it was a non-starter. Yes, I was that naive. The Benson opportunity was great since my neighbour was an Air Loadmaster in the RAF and a few of his colleagues were training as instructors to give themselves a career in civvy street. In 2003 I was paying £60 ph in total, for plane, fuel, instruction, landing fees, which was impressive even back then. Then there was a job and house move and
Benson became too far away.

So this May, I took a big bag of cash and a willingness to learn and knocked on all the doors of the flying clubs at my local airport, Shoreham-by-Sea; good old EGKA. I got the distinct impression they had seen many people like me before and there was little enthusiasm from any of them, other than giving me a few photocopied handouts and assuring me that the PPL(A) could be achieved in three months for around £7-8k. I was skeptical, to say the least, and had budgeted £12k over four months.

One of the schools was shutting down and their CFI was working for a long-established club that I was invited to join. I have to say, their set-up is great and although not as affordable as my Benson days, came in at around £200 ph for a PA28, instruction and landing fee. I could have trained in their 152 but fancied a bit more decadence in my advancing years.

I tackled this project as though it were my full-time job and my wife commented that she'd never seen me read so much or study so hard. I had all the Pooley's manuals (that's a story for another day), charts, my whizz-wheel and a thirst for not only learning facts and figures but understanding how and why they are what they are. My first flight was June 12th, my first solo was July 25th and I felt I was making good progress. I took and passed five of the nine written exams in just one morning, with the other four a couple of weeks later and was hammering the circuit with 16 touch-and-gos in one session alone. Then August came, my instructor took three weeks' holiday and in September the weather was less predictable. It was November 8th before my Skill Test came around and I was eager to pass.

I got a partial fail. It was my PFL that I failed on and the examiner seemed as disappointed as me as he was otherwise very impressed with my flying as well as my attitude. The examiner had wanted to see a different technique (high key-low key) compared with the apparently more 'military' approach of the left wing down, circling the field method I had been taught. He also took me way lower than my instructor ever had and I was uncomfortable (and nervous) but realised he was the only other person I'd ever flown with so what did I know about right or wrong. I was prescribed another hour of instruction on the PFL and looked at this as a real bonus. I would far rather get something wrong in the Skill Test and have to learn a different technique, than pass the test and run the risk of getting it wrong in the real world.

On November 19th I took and passed the retest and skipped over to the CAA office in nearby Gatwick to hand over my application pack in person. I am happy to say my licence arrived just over a week later and now I am eager to learn as much as I can about safe, enjoyable and adventurous flying. I'm doing my night rating at the moment and should have that complete next week and am taking the obligatory trip to Le Touquet tomorrow in order to get my cross-channel check done. I will also do the check-ride in the 152, which gives me a lower per hour cost, especially as I'll mostly be flying solo or with just one passenger.

In all, the PPL took me five months to complete at a cost of £14,500, not including equipment and books etc. of around £1,800, some of which I could recoup by selling if I needed to. I was very fortunate that I could fly at pretty much any time during the week when most other people were at work. My instructor would call me up if she had a cancellation or the plane became available and I was no more than half an hour from the airport so would jump at the chance to take to the air. I also had the benefit of a sizeable check-book, which is a significant advantage to those who are paying for lessons out of their wage packet. A touch-and-go at EGKA is £10.80 so when you're in the circuit the costs soon add-up. The total cost breakdown is quite sobering:

Landing Fees( including T&G, go-arounds etc.): £3,034.80
Aircraft Hours (including fuel, insurance etc.): £7,393.15
Tuition Fees (including ground school etc.): £2,687.00
Exams & Fees (incuding medical, CAA etc.): £1,080.00
Club membership subs (£45 pcm): £270.00

You could probably spend the same on golf or other expensive hobbies but I can't think of anything I would have enjoyed quite so much. I promised my wife I'd go back to (serious) work in October and have been doing some consultancy, part-time, since November. I was offered a job last September for a firm who were very keen for me to join them as soon as I could. I insisted on meeting the two co-founders of the business over dinner, to make sure this was a firm I wanted to work with. One of the first questions the COO asked me was: "so how come you haven't done anything for the past four months?" When I replied that I was getting my PPL she rolled her eyes and said "Huh, well anybody could do that!" So I decided this was not the firm for me and turned them down.

It's absolutely not true that "anybody could do it" and I have been impressed and humbled in equal measure by the people I have seen flying and their generosity to share their time, experience and expertise with me. I may get a plane, I probably will at some point but perhaps when my daughter has left university and I've replenished the family coffers. It's amazing to feel part of a cohesive and collegiate community of people who I know have had to go through many of the same experience as me, it makes me feel safe and quite proud. Thanks for reading this, if you got this far(!) and I look forward to taking part and seeing you in the air at some point soon - preferably from a safe distance. :wink:
T4RG4, T67M, B1engineer and 6 others liked this
By cockney steve
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1577307
Great post and, i'm sure, will prove an inspiration to many. I like your decision to select and interview your prospective employer! My youngest son is in IT and, AFAIK specialises in network admin, though he also managed an ISP's abuse department, until the firm was gobbled up by a bigger fish. (he promptly resigned and went on to a 50% pay-increase, and 2 hours a day less commuting!

You certainly splashed a lot of cash, but got the result. Well done! I have read the Trevor Thom series and appreciate the vast spectrum of knowledge you need to absorb.... May be worthwhile sending a copy of the syllabus to the dismissive putative employer and a note..."if it's so easy, get your licence, then I might have some respect for you."

Note, I'm not a pilot but been an impoverished wannabe for many years :P :thumleft:
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By T4RG4
#1577314
A fantastic read and congratulations on your achievement! I too recently passed my Skills Test (November 24th) though I am not yet in receipt of my license. Incorrect paperwork detail which could not be corrected until the CFI returned from holiday. Any day now I'm sure...

Hope to see you on some flying adventures in the new year!
Last edited by T4RG4 on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
T67M, Flyin'Dutch' and 1 others liked this
By MarkOlding
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1577316
Well done JJB and T4RG4, as a PPL holder with considerably more experience than you both (passed 14th September this year...) I congratulate you on finishing the 1st part of the journey !
Its a great feeling being able to disappear off on your own or just ask if anyone fancies a flight and visiting different places.
Enjoy the next part, although JJB seems well into it already with your night rating and cross channel sign off already underway. I'm doing complex at the moment (retractable undercarriage and constant speed prop) and then tail wheel after that.
I have to say that I can't get the desire to learn more out of my system now and must seem like a kid asking "who why where what" all the time.

Have fun
Cheers
T4RG4, Flyin'Dutch' and 1 others liked this
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By T4RG4
#1577322
I'm currently trying to book transition training so that I'm signed off in the 172 as well as the 152 (the latter I used throughout training). Flying club rules and all that stuff. Operate out of EGTO (Rochester in Kent).
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By T67M
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1577324
Welcome to the "Licensed to Learn" club! An excellent and informative first post - thanks for sharing. Congratulations on getting the whole course done in a single summer with a single instructor too - I'd say that was very unusual these days. One fact you maybe accidentally omitted was how many hours it took you to get to the Skills Test, and how many more hours it took to finally get the licence in your hand. I'm sure other students (I qualified a fair few years ago) would welcome that information as it helps to set their expectations when they're starting out on the exciting journey.

Now go out and enjoy yourself for a bit. Night ratings, IR(R), aerobatics - all sorts of extras you can add on. Enjoy!
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By Morten
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1577330
Congratulations indeed - and a great read.

I must admit I did a double-take on the landing fee costs part of your list - it's been mentioned before, but it does show the importance for others looking at getting their PPL to take it into account as they set off.
Having said that, I thought most places you could do ab initio training would have landing fees baked into the hourly costs. In fact, to this day, I have never paid for landing fees on any of the accompanied flights/checkrides etc. I have ever had. I have paid to land at LOS a couple of times but that's always been on my own - to make a local member pay the same during training strikes me as a bit harsh...

Anyway - jolly well done and welcome to the Forum :thumright:

Morten
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1577332
Very well done! I took two years and a bit more money when I did my PPL aged 52 alongside work :-)

I followed your pattern when I did my IR

I would now look at clocking up some solo and passenger carrying time and find a good group to join.

Blue Skies :-)
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By Sooty25
#1577347
Morten wrote:Congratulations indeed - and a great read.

I must admit I did a double-take on the landing fee costs part of your list - it's been mentioned before, but it does show the importance for others looking at getting their PPL to take it into account as they set off.
Having said that, I thought most places you could do ab initio training would have landing fees baked into the hourly costs. In fact, to this day, I have never paid for landing fees on any of the accompanied flights/checkrides etc. I have ever had. I have paid to land at LOS a couple of times but that's always been on my own - to make a local member pay the same during training strikes me as a bit harsh...

Anyway - jolly well done and welcome to the Forum :thumright:

Morten


I've got to admit I said out loud "three grand on landing fees!, Jeez!"

I only paid for 3 at a tenner each when I did mine, they were cross country out landings and included mugs of tea!

But, well done and congratulations!
By JJB
#1577361
T67M wrote:One fact you maybe accidentally omitted was how many hours it took you to get to the Skills Test, and how many more hours it took to finally get the licence in your hand. I'm sure other students (I qualified a fair few years ago) would welcome that information as it helps to set their expectations when they're starting out on the exciting journey.


Many thanks for the encouragement, the total number of hours was 66, of which 54 were dual and 12 solo, so not too much over the 45 hour minimum but I struggle to believe many people could complete it all in that time. Another big advantage I found of doing three of four lessons each week, blended with ground school and study, is that I didn't really forget anything. I was worried that if the gap between lessons was too long, I'd spend a large part of each subsequent lesson revising big chunks from the previous one; like two steps forward and one step back.

As for the time I waited to get the licence, it was just eight working days. I dropped it off in the evening of Nov 22nd, in person at the CAA since I live close to Gatwick, and had it delivered back by FedEx on December 5th. Not too bad but you can imagine the checking and double-checking of all the forms before I submitted them!
:thumleft:
By JJB
#1577369
Sooty25 wrote:
Morten wrote:Congratulations indeed - and a great read.

I must admit I did a double-take on the landing fee costs part of your list - it's been mentioned before, but it does show the importance for others looking at getting their PPL to take it into account as they set off.
Having said that, I thought most places you could do ab initio training would have landing fees baked into the hourly costs. In fact, to this day, I have never paid for landing fees on any of the accompanied flights/checkrides etc. I have ever had. I have paid to land at LOS a couple of times but that's always been on my own - to make a local member pay the same during training strikes me as a bit harsh...

Anyway - jolly well done and welcome to the Forum :thumright:

Morten


I've got to admit I said out loud "three grand on landing fees!, Jeez!"



Thanks for the encouraging comments. As for Landing Fees...

It was the biggest unexpected cost from my perspective and I had presumed the costs would be baked-in to ab initio training. I think the main factor is the way Shoreham is set-up, with no overarching 'club' that you can join. It's mainly group shares, independent clubs and commercial training outfits. The airport certainly seems focused on screwing as much money out of landing fees as they can and I'd love to say the service is always top class as a result, but there are still issues to contend with. It's a great place to fly from, though, and I really enjoy spending time there and meeting all the people who work at and use or visit the place. Reading feedback on other GA forums, however, the high landing fees are mentioned by almost everyone.

Circuits was the real killer, I didn't really appreciate how long I would have to spend finessing the round-out and flare to get it right (almost) every time. July was the heaviest month for circuits with 91 T&Gs and 11 landings coming in at an eye-watering £1,329.60. My instructor was, quite rightly, annoyed that I was paying more to the airport than I was for her time and training. Perhaps had I known it was going to be so expensive, I might have shopped around a bit more, but the convenience of everything at EGKA (equipment shops etc.) and it being on my doorstep was a big draw. I plan to do my IR, perhaps next summer, and will likely do that elsewhere, if only to save on such big costs.
:thumleft:
By JJB
#1577371
cockney steve wrote:I like your decision to select and interview your prospective employer! My youngest son is in IT and, AFAIK specialises in network admin, though he also managed an ISP's abuse department, until the firm was gobbled up by a bigger fish. (he promptly resigned and went on to a 50% pay-increase, and 2 hours a day less commuting!


It's poles apart from when I started work in the mid 90s and a totally different world from what I saw of how my parents saw their jobs. The new Millennial generation in the workforce have a lot they can teach us, one such thing being that employment really is a two-way street - as your son has discovered. I've learned to look at interviews as working out if this company or working for that boss is where I want to spend most of my waking hours and if it's not, better to know sooner rather than later!

I hope you are able to get off the ground soon enough. :thumright:
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By Charles Hunt
#1578441
Welcome to the forum, excellent first post, and well done.

Re the forced landing never mind high key/low key or almost anything else, see viewtopic.php?f=1&t=106356

Keep flying the aircraft!!!

And if you ever fancy a beer and to talk aviation nonsense just let me know. Well done again.
By JJB
#1578723
Charles Hunt wrote:Welcome to the forum, excellent first post, and well done.

Re the forced landing never mind high key/low key or almost anything else, see viewtopic.php?f=1&t=106356

Keep flying the aircraft!!!

And if you ever fancy a beer and to talk aviation nonsense just let me know. Well done again.


Thanks, Charles, I'll certainly do that in the new year. All the best in the meantime.