[rikur_]

Would the BS/TS that you had previously still stand or do you need to renegotiate it?

My understanding is that if you have been told to 'contact' the next unit then you retain the service that you had previously unless advised.

From personal experience, I have had Humberside downgrade me from traffic service to a basic service before hand-over to Conningsby at the same point putting me onto a Conningsby squawk - so I assume it forms part of the hand-over between units.

I think there is a key difference here (perhaps one of the ATCOs will confirm) that 'contact' preserves the service, but 'continue with' doesn't, but in both cases the other unit has your details.

[PaulB]

Continue with implies that although the receiving unit knows about you, there has been no formal radar handover. Contact implies that a formal radar handover has taken place.

10.50 The term “Continue With” is used by a controller to indicate to the pilot that his flight details and profile have been prenoted to the next controller, but it is not possible to effect a formal radar handover.

[SolutionMania]

Staverton Flying School. You'll be given a Basic Service by default when flying VFR. Don't really see the point of using the Cotswold RPS these days, local QNH is fine.

Hi marspart3 - I don't doubt your response, but as a student, I'm curious... has something changed in recent years that means there's no point in using the Cotswold RPS, 'these days'? Is it simply the case that the Gloucester QNH is similar enough to Cotswold that there's limited value in switching?

Presumably when venturing further afield then changing to the relevant RPS en-route is still the right thing to be doing?

A clarification would be appreciated (oh, and thanks to you and all at EGBJ for putting up with my stumbling attempts at RT!).

- Chris

[JonathanB]

Better to get a real QNH from a nearby airfield rather than a forecast value with dubious accuracy!

[PaulB]

Presumably when venturing further afield then changing to the relevant RPS en-route is still the right thing to be doing?

I guess it depends what you're going to do next.... If you are going to change to another unit (eg Brize for LARS) you'd clearly use theirs. As Jonathan says, it's probably better to have a real QNH than a forecast one.

[townleyc]

I am amazed - only once during my training 10 years ago was I given an RPS - when leaving Cottesmore CMATZ. Never had one since.

Even then I needed my instructor to explain what they had given me. I though they were extinct for VFR flying, hence my question earlier


KE

[riverrock]

If you have a local QNH - use it.
If you don't, the RPS will make sure you are at least as high as you think you are, as its got a "fudge" factor included above the forecast value. The danger of this is that you might be higher than what the altimeter says, so you can in-inadvertently infringe airspace you think is above you. In most places, there will be a QNH which is more useful. So services such as Scottish Info will normally pass an RPS as there aren't many airports in the Scottish Borders to provide a QNH, but if you are near an airport - using their QNH is better / more accurate.

[rikur_]

In my experience some LARS units routinely use the local RPS ..... and some like to keep you twiddling
e.g. I am flying on departure airfield QNH, call up for a BS/TS... I get passed the RPS and asked to confirm altitude on the RPS.
I twiddle and confirm.
I request a zone transit, and get told it's approved at 2000ft on their airfield QNH.
I twiddle and comply.

I'll sadly confess I do get a little 'nearly home' feeling when I get first passed the Barnsley RPS on flight back home

[pjl953]

The only time I have been given an RPS is from London Info, when there aren't any nearby airports to use their value (and the only time which I've had to use it has been Enstone - Shobdon in the bit between Pershore and Bromyard) - no they aren't ideal but as long as you bear in mind you could be (sometimes by a considerable margin) higher than you think, surely they are better than nothing in areas where there is, well, nothing.

Returning to the earlier (and original) question - if I am told to 'contact' a unit (happened to me for the first time the other day when I was subject to a radar handover between Brize and Oxford) then the receiving unit has all my details and they only need my callsign, but it can be useful to give your altitude as well in case they need to verify your Mode C readout. With that in mind, my call would just be 'G-XXXX, 3200 feet on 1017'

Peter

[rikur_]

Returning to the earlier (and original) question - if I am told to 'contact' a unit (happened to me for the first time the other day when I was subject to a radar handover between Brize and Oxford) then the receiving unit has all my details and they only need my callsign, but it can be useful to give your altitude as well in case they need to verify your Mode C readout. With that in mind, my call would just be 'G-XXXX, 3200 feet on 1017'

When flying VFR, for a hand-over between two frequencies, just 'Tumbleweed radar, G-XXXX' is sufficient.

When flying IFR:
For initial handover from tower to radar/approach: you should include your current altitude, and your cleared altitude or flight level. You should also include the SID identifier or equivalent if applicable.
For hand-overs thereafter you should only include your current altitude (if in level flight) and/or your cleared altitude (if this is not your current altitude).

However, as some units use validated/verified squawks for VFR traffic they will need to verify your altitude at initial handover from tower to radar/approach. You don't *need* to include this in your initial call - they can request it - but personally I just find it easier to have a standard phraseology regardless of whether I am flying VFR or IFR, or which type of squawk the airfield uses.
So on handover from tower to radar I will always use 'Tumbleweed radar, G-XXXX, passing 1200ft on 1017 climbing altitude 3000ft' .... which should simply get me a reply akin to 'G-XX roger' - job done ( or OCAS 'G-XX, roger, basic service, Barnsley 1009' )

[James Chan]

For initial handover from tower to radar/approach: you should include your current altitude, and your cleared altitude or flight level. You should also include the SID identifier or equivalent if applicable.
For hand-overs thereafter you should only include your current altitude (if in level flight) and/or your cleared altitude (if this is not your current altitude).

Yes but I thought this applied to VFR (use next waypoint or route designator where applicable instead of SID) flights as well?

Flying VFR should still require verification of mode-C, and stating current and target altitude remains important? I seem to recall a serious incident in the USA about 15 years ago which prompted the introduction of this procedure, but I can't remember which one.

If it's callsign only then you'll hear "Contact XXX call sign only".

[malcolmfrost]

RPS is for terrain avoidance, local QNH for airspace avoidance.
For example, today, for Gatwick, the RPS is 1018, Gatwick QNH is 1022, so flying at 2400 feet under the TMA you will be at 2520, so infringing.

[James Chan]

I just read PANS ATM Doc 4444 16th ed. which states:

4.11.3 Radiotelephony procedures for air-ground voice communication channel changeover

When so prescribed by the appropriate ATS authority, the initial call to an ATC unit after a change of air-ground voice communication channel shall contain the following elements:

a) designation of the station being called;
b) call sign and, for aircraft in the heavy wake turbulence category, the word “Heavy”;
c) level, including passing and cleared levels if not maintaining the cleared level;
d) speed, if assigned by ATC; and
e) additional elements, as required by the appropriate ATS authority.

And:

4.11.2.1.1

... flight level or altitude, shall, however, be included in the initial call after a change of air-ground voice communication channel.

Omission [of this] may be possible when flight level or altitude, as appropriate, derived from pressure-altitude information can be made continuously available to controllers in labels associated with the position indication of aircraft and when adequate procedures have been developed to guarantee the safe and efficient use of this altitude information.

[rikur_]

If it's callsign only then you'll hear "Contact XXX call sign only".

I thought for a VFR handover, it's call sign only..... but perhaps one of the ATCOs can confirm?

(I do generally include altitude anyway, but I didn't think it was required on a VFR handover)

[akg1486]

This may be different from country to country, but I was taught to limit the initial call to station and call sign. The rationale being that even if the radio is silent, the station may not be ready for my details. I still follow this. When on an ATS flight plan, the station often knows everything about me. If not, I give the details when they respond.