Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1876947
RobA wrote:
Iceman wrote:With winter approaching, another factor @RobA is runway availability. Runways at grass airfields often become unusable in the winter.

Iceman 8)


Thanks, I'll put that down as a mark against Redhill and White Waltham then.

As biblical quantities of rain have become more frequent over the last few years, there have been a very few occasions when White Waltham has been closed due to soft ground after very long wet periods.

However, it's pretty rare compared with Redhill.

Disclaimer: I am a bit biased, having been based at WW for the last 20 years. PM me if you'd like to meet up for a cup of tea and a wander round. Even though your name is Rob ;)
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By Iceman
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1876959
@RobA, I trained at Redhill in 1995, and was based there for 8 years. I would always advocate learning at a tower-controlled airfield if possible and it’s the only such airfield on your list (apart from Biggin). Biggin’s not too friendly as a training airfield these days. Redhill does suffer from water-logging in the winter which can put all of the grass runways out of action. Redhill’s hard 07/25 is unlicensed which means no circuits, I seem to recall. Do pop in to Redhill Aviation and get the full story. If not Redhill, then I’d recommend Fairoaks or Blackbushe, particularly the latter and Blackbushe Aviation. I’m based at Blackbushe and White Waltham these days.

Iceman 8)
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By cotterpot
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1876965
And in addition to charging by Tacho or Brakes Off/Brakes On there is Hobbs. This may/will cost more as it starts as soon as you turn on the master switch., until you turn it off.

Probably not a lot of difference in the first two until you start doing cross country. If I am not going anywhere I can fly for an hour with only 0.8 on the tacho, sometimes 0.7, but then I don't throw the aircraft about too much, not that it matters as we charge by BO/BO less 10 minutes.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1876969
Iceman wrote:I would always advocate learning at a tower-controlled airfield if possible

I'd be interested to know the rationale behind this, as although it's important to get exposure to actual ATC, I'd take completely the opposite view for training.

Initially it would be with instructor guidance, of course, but getting into the habit of taking responsibility, as opposed to being told what to do, is, IMHO, a far more useful and important thing to learn than getting over the (very transient) nerves associated with interacting with ATC.

At towered fields, circuits tend to be bigger, there are more take-off delays, and being told what to do all the time tends to get transferred over to new pilots' expectations when they visit uncontrolled fields.

A/G every time.
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#1876974
My view is that the nature of the ATSU at the field you train at is a pretty minor factor (I was at Wellesbourne a FISO airfield).

But if ATC brings with it expensive landings and lengthy waits at the hold I would run a mile.

I'd suggest it's far easier for someone trained with minimal control to adapt to doing exactly what they are told by ATC, than for someone used to doing what they are told to adapt to taking the decisions themselves and acting on them.

Rob P
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1876979
Rob P wrote:But if ATC brings with it expensive landings and lengthy waits at the hold

Is there anywhere that it doesn't?

Shoreham is the only place I go to frequently these days with ATC, and much as I like it for other reasons, both of these do tend to apply.

Except when they're short-staffed, and it reverts to A/G and everything is a lot simpler and smoother.

Strangely, without the added 'service' of 'full' ATC, there's no discount in those cases...

Sorry, getting a bit off-topic. But I wholeheartedly agree with Rob (P!) on this:

Rob P wrote:I'd suggest it's far easier for someone trained with minimal control to adapt to doing exactly what they are told by ATC, than for someone used to doing what they are told to adapt to taking the decisions themselves and acting on them.


... which is what I meant above.
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#1876981
TopCat wrote:Is there anywhere that it doesn't?


To be honest I don't really notice landing fees. Like when I am at a service station I just swipe the card without thinking much about the total, it's just the cost of the hobby.

That said Dundee was brilliant, certainly not much in the way of queues at the hold or lengthy taxis.

Rob P
#1877061
Iceman wrote:@RobA, I trained at Redhill in 1995, and was based there for 8 years. I would always advocate learning at a tower-controlled airfield if possible and it’s the only such airfield on your list (apart from Biggin). Biggin’s not too friendly as a training airfield these days. Redhill does suffer from water-logging in the winter which can put all of the grass runways out of action. Redhill’s hard 07/25 is unlicensed which means no circuits, I seem to recall. Do pop in to Redhill Aviation and get the full story. If not Redhill, then I’d recommend Fairoaks or Blackbushe, particularly the latter and Blackbushe Aviation. I’m based at Blackbushe and White Waltham these days.

Iceman 8)

Circuits are now allowed on R/W 25/07 since it was widened and straightened a few years ago. The problem this year will be that movements on it are restricted by local planning rules, so circuits will probably be rationed in some way. We won’t know the impact of this until we try it.

Hard runways are few and far between in the Southeast so Redhill is definitely worth considering.

I work for Cubair who operate DA20s and a PA28. The DA20s are (IMO) are a bit better than a 152, wider inside and equipped with a CS prop which is nice.
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#1877144
Thanks everyone for all these points, it's brought up a few things I hadn't thought about. Not going to count anything in or out at the moment because I realise I still have so much to learn, I'm sure going out in person will help to clear things up. Just sitting at home on the computer is probably just going to lead to analysis paralysis.

@TopCat thanks for your offer, it's very kind, I'll PM you my contact details as I would be keen to take you up on it.

@Iceman I managed to miss that there is a hard runway at Redhill :oops: I guess because it is unlicensed it doesn't show up in the AIP. Hopefully before too long I will have an actual flight guide so I don't miss things like that.

With regards to ATC vs A/G, I presume that which ever way I go it would be advisable to ask my future instructor to go for some trips over to the other type in order to gain experience of both. I like the idea of building up the experience with an ATC, but at the same time I'm also keen on avoiding delays and long circuit with the additional expense. Something to think about in the bigger picture.

@cotterpot for pointing that out, I'd thought that all Hobbs metres were triggered off engine oil pressure so in my head I had erroneously lumped it together with tacho time. I hadn't realised that some Hobbs metres get triggered by the master switch and found that Wikipedia also lists some other interesting methods. I've noticed that some schools advertise straight tacho time and some seem to advertise tacho time multiplied by ~0.8 so that's one to watch for.

Thanks for that info @QSD I'll definitely look into it properly. I had noticed that Cubair offer training on the DA20 and they do look to be quite shiny, I might have to come and have a look!
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By Milty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1877150
RobA wrote:With regards to ATC vs A/G, I presume that which ever way I go it would be advisable to ask my future instructor to go for some trips over to the other type in order to gain experience of both. I like the idea of building up the experience with an ATC, but at the same time I'm also keen on avoiding delays and long circuit with the additional expense. Something to think about in the bigger picture.


I can only speak from my own limited experience so far but I’m learning at Gloucester that is a relatively busy ATC controlled field. In 9 lessons, I’ve only been held behind more than one aircraft once to take off. It took about 10 mins for 3 to take off before me and one to land and my instructor kindly dropped some time off the charge for that. The rest of the time, I’ve either been cleared straight away or as next in sequence. I’m not sure that it would have been any quicker at an A/G field - traffic is traffic as far as I can tell.

I personally quite like that I am getting used to ATC radio calls and my instructor has had me on the radio from lesson 1 (guided of course and with the occasional jump in when I’ve had a brain-fart).

It is more expensive (£10/landing @ Gloucester so on a circuits lesson, it bumps up the cost by another £70) but for me, I feel there is value in that. Another field, Halfpenny Green is about 25 mins flight away and is AFIS controlled with a fixed £35 for all the landings you want in a day. We’ve been up there twice to gain some experience and save a bit on landing fees. So, yes, I expect if at an ATC field, your instructor will take you to others for experience and you will likely do it on you cross country flights anyway.

There isn’t a right or wrong answer to this but I have heard others say they are daunted by flying to ATC controlled Gloucester. I had no such feelings in flying to Halfpenny Green and getting involved in their circuits.
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#1877177
Milty wrote: I have heard others say they are daunted by flying to ATC controlled Gloucester.


That's a training failure, pure and simple.

Rob P
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1877193
Rob P wrote:
Milty wrote: I have heard others say they are daunted by flying to ATC controlled Gloucester.


That's a training failure, pure and simple.

It really is.

I can imagine that to a new student, a big airfield may seem daunting if you're not used to it, and might be lulled into the idea that getting used to it from the beginning may be an advantage. And therefore choosing it in preference to an uncontrolled field.

But IMHO the long term advantage of learning to take responsibility for everything in flying can't be overstated.
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By RobW
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1877199
As a still low hour PPL student I faced the same concerns, I think you get used to what you are most often faced with. ATC at Norwich are an incredibly friendly and helpful bunch, they will remind me if I forget to make a call, but its helpful and not done in any scornful or condescending way. Personally I think that when I eventually get free of the circuits I would miss the overseeing eye of ATC!
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