Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872094
lobstaboy wrote:So, use the correct approach speed - too fast makes it all much more difficult.

In general, of course I agree with this but it might not be a bad idea if you have access to a nice long runway somewhere, to intentionally fly a couple of approaches several knots too fast.

With a nice long runway, and lots of speed to bleed off, you'll get the opportunity for a nice long progressive hold-off. I think there is something to be said for experiencing the situation you actually want to avoid for long enough to become aware of what's really going on as the aeroplane slows down.

The problem with landings is that you fly around the circuit and it takes anything from 5 to 15 minutes depending on how big it is, and then you only get five seconds to practise the absolutely crucial bit each time.

It's no wonder it's difficult, because in an hour of circuits you really only get 30 seconds of practice.
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By lobstaboy
#1872096
JAFO wrote:...you just seem to be flying the same hour over and over again.

If you're going to continue then I think that something has to change, even if it's just for a short interlude. I can fully understand your frustration but nothing is going to change by doing another twenty hours in the same circuit with the same instructor in the same aircraft at the same airfield getting the same result.


I don't fall into the change instructor at the drop of a hat camp, but if this is a true picture of how things are for you, then, yes, something needs to change.

(The danger from doing the same thing over and over again and getting a poor outcome, apart from the frustration, is you are practicing and learning the wrong thing - making it harder, not easier, to learn to do it well. Which is obvious really but your instructor seems to have lost sight of that).

Good luck!
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By tr7v8
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872162
Spooky just read of someone on PPRune who s having the same issue as me. Loads of hours but no solo.
Some interesting stuff published there as well. But also a link to this video.

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By T6Harvard
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872188
Ha, ha, that video did make me laugh. Partly because it appears to be (a younger) me in the LHS, especially the head banging sequence and the almost falling out of the door (see prev report some months ago).

BUT... I am not sure it will work for me as a technique - it's definitely worth discussing with my instructor though. If he flies one I can do the pizza lookout to check it out :D

I have never yet been able to see the 'ground rushing by' / unblurry difference, not in any of the 40 or so landings I've sat through from day one, even when that's all I have concentrated on as my instructor demo'd. I just can't see it!

So I'm not sure that video helped me know when to start the flare, which is my bugbear.
If I get the flare height right the hold off is usually not too bad, although last week I was too quick on the invisible ratchet a couple of times. I knew I was getting tired and with that came a degree of anxiety, I think, so I over-reacted :shock: )

@TopCat has the problem nailed - we only get to practise the crucial bit during a few seconds in any hour. I absolutely know I can do this but just when it will improve to the required consistency I have no idea yet.

Come on @tr7v8, stick with me, we can do this!!
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By lobstaboy
#1872195
T6Harvard wrote:
I have never yet been able to see the 'ground rushing by' / unblurry difference, not in any of the 40 or so landings I've sat through from day one, even when that's all I have concentrated on as my instructor demo'd. I just can't see it!

.,..
So I'm not sure that video helped me know when to start the flare, which is my bugbear.

....
Come on @tr7v8, stick with me, we can do this!!


I can't see it either. I'm not convinced about that as an explanation, but you do definitely need to be able to see the ground out the side.

And as you say, that's not about WHEN to start the flare, it's about how to judge your virtual ratchet. Maybe read that bit in Stick and Rudder again? He talks about it being to do with feeling how much buoyancy (energy) the airplane has. I do get this - I mean it's not just visual, it's also feel somehow like maybe feedback through the controls...

Most instructors that I know struggle to explain, just as I do. They can show you and tell you where to look, but that's about all.
(Incidentally I do think that looking in the right place at the right time is crucial - watch yourself judging a corner when you're driving, the same is true and it's a similar problem just in a different axis).

Yes you can do it!! :)
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By Milty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872256
Meant to try that technique today. Worked out it would be a funny shaped pizza slice in the 152 so aborted that idea pretty quickly.
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By JAFO
#1872391
@tr7v8 - if you go somewhere else/try another school/swap instructor/just get out of the circuit for a couple of hours that might be what you need to break this very, very long stalemate. The very worst that can happen is that you find out that you are just one of those people (one in a million) who, for some reason, is never going to progress. At least you'd know for sure before you jacked it all in.
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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872392
@tr7v8 If you haven't already then get a copy of Ron Fowler's book Making Perfect Landings in Light Airplanes and read it carefully......
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By T6Harvard
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872396
I have a copy of Ron Fowler's book. It makes perfect sense but .... so far it has not led to a breakthrough for me.

However, I have dipped into Stick and Rudder and loved it, but as @lobstaboy reminded me, I need to concentrate and read it properly :mrgreen:

I am also eager to find out whether I can feel the energy changing during the flare because when I read that comment yesterday I had a flashback to a moment which hadn't really registered as such but now resonates. I think that will really help.

The invisible ratchet has been mentioned previously but at that time I had never landed ( :( ) so it wasn't as meaningful. This I can use!! I am told there may well be some available for FF students FOC at Duxford :lol:

I'll tell you why I think it will help me ......

The 'hold it off' mantra is too basic on it's own, obviously, and tbh I sort of thought the raising the nose was a steady, smooth action as energy decayed. Sooo, the gentle ratchet action allowing both small increments, feeling the changes, and disallowing any forward shoves* (thankfully not had that urge, thanks to reading FF warnings!). may well help a lot.

*emphasis on 'shoves'. I am still amazed that I managed to just relax the yoke and add a little power to save a potential balloon the other week (definitely my biggest achievement so far).

Thank you all for the help so far!
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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872398
The best advice I got was "Level off close to the runway and try not to land" :-)

This causes a slow and steady pull on the yoke/stick until the main wheels touch with the nose high
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By VRB_20kt
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872413
Agree

Trying not to land is key. Unfortunately if you’re a tad high then it’s not the entire solution.

I wonder whether you’re doing chop and drop? Chopping the power means that you’re committed to losing energy at the fastest rate. If there’s a decent length of runway, talk to your instructor about reducing the power to zero more gradually. It extends the “learning period” commensurately and gives you a better opportunity to stay in front of what the aircraft is doing.

You should already have experienced the “flying level along the runway at slow speed” exercise. Slow reduction of power is an extension of this and can be a building block along the way. The aim is to get the transition from air to ground mastered and then to take less and less time over the process until you’ve mastered even short field landings.

On benign weather days, there is little need to rush. As long as there’s runway in front to permit a safe go-around you should be fine.


As ever, your instructor needs to be your reference - (s)he should be sound basis for everything you do.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872458
T6Harvard wrote:The 'hold it off' mantra is too basic on it's own, obviously, and tbh I sort of thought the raising the nose was a steady, smooth action as energy decayed. Sooo, the gentle ratchet action allowing both small increments, feeling the changes, and disallowing any forward shoves* (thankfully not had that urge, thanks to reading FF warnings!). may well help a lot.

Yes, it should.

It's virtually impossible to make the hold off a steady, continuous, progressive raising of the nose for a number of reasons.

Firstly, the rate of deceleration will increase as the nose is raised during the hold-off. This is because the higher the AoA, the higher the drag, and so the quicker the aeroplane will slow down.

If it's slowing down quicker, the pitch rate has to be higher to maintain lift equal to the weight, which it must to continue flying straight and level above the runway (which is what you want).

So the stick comes back more quickly in the final stages of the hold-off just before touch-down.

It's more complicated than that for several reasons, none of which is particularly relevant to technique, except for one.

And that is the wind. It's very rarely constant along the runway; there are gusts and eddies, which means that both the strength and direction of the wind can change quite noticeably during the flare and hold off.

Inevitably therefore, there will be small corrections needed constantly from the flare to touch down and beyond. A big gust can make the aeroplane airborne again even after touchdown.
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By JAFO
#1872472
One of the wonderful things about flying is that you never take off into the same sky twice. The difficulty with that is that you never make the same landing twice.

I think that when we are learning to fly, we sort of assume that we are learning to do a thing, rather like parallel parking (which I still can't do) or reversing round a corner. The trouble is, we're not learning to do one thing, we're trying to learn how it should look when we do all of the many individual things that the conditions of the day require for a decent landing to ensue.
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By T6Harvard
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872486
Do you think that the ability to parallel park demonstrates the presence of useful hand-brain-eye co-ordination, 'cos I'm good at that!!
Maybe there is hope for me after all :lol:

I take your point @JAFO that it's always different, which is why one needs to know what one is doing with the controls :shock:
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By AndyR
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872547
@tr7v8 , my input.

If you’ve spent >30 hours in the circuit with no relief from that, it’s little wonder you haven’t called it a day. Get out of the circuit. Revisit the early exercises with full briefs before and after flight. Revisit properly, particularly Ex 6.1, 6.2, 7&8.

Then go back into the circuit. Having had a full brief, as if you were starting again.

Consider a different instructor even if just to get a slightly different approach/viewpoint. Has this been discussed at your school? Every CFI I’ve worked for would have certainly had a lengthy conversation with both instructor and student if they had not shown significant improvement in that time.

That would be my approach.
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