The place for technical discussions about GA and flying.
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User avatar
By JonH690
#1549348
Morning all,

Just here to get a bit of information really in regards to the use/possibility of using titanium in GA as a whole.

I have been in the titanium industry now for 6 years and as I am a GA flyer myself, the topic of conversation came up with the possibility to supply to build/modify GA aircraft.

Of course there is upsides and downsides to the use of this material, but just curious if you know of it being used before as its something I'm genuinely interested in, and to what application its applied to.

Now I could talk for days about the use of it in commercial aspects.. :wink:

Thanks

Jon
User avatar
By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1549617
Sukhoi 26 and Sukhoi 29 have titanium landing gear legs.

I suspect that the only way that was affordable was because they were built in factories with the tooling already available (for Sukhoi's military jet products) and the true cost was never fully justified in economic terms.
User avatar
By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1549619
I've been party recently to testing some 3D printed titanium components on a large aeroplane. Very impressive technology, although I'm afraid that I don't have sight of what it cost. My guess is that right now the cost of a couple of components is equivalent to the price of a half decent second hand PA28 however.

That'll change - and yes, I think that this technology and that material (along with 3D printing in aluminium alloys) will also have a future in GA. Not unlike the way composite technologies have made a huge difference to the ability to make aeroplanes lighter in aerodynamically better shapes, I think we'll see exactly the same in GA as this technology gets cheaper and more widely available, and engineers get used to desiging in it.

I'd hate to try and give a trustworthy estimate of when. But, when I was studying "advanced materials for aerospace" at Southampton University around 1990, this wasn't even science fiction. So, I would think it's more likely years than decades.

G
User avatar
By joe-fbs
#1549652
Indeed so, while the world has been associating the word technology with iPhones, manufacturing has been changing out of all recognition. Current additive manufacturing machines aren't by any stretch of the imagination Star Trek replicators but they certainly put me in mind of them. When I first saw Rapid Prototyping as it was then called in about 1992 it was a machine that glued bits of paper together to make shape representations of no functional value. Now it is doing the sort of things G mentions above. I was out of metal manufacturing from 2003 to 2011, the change in that time was stunning. Nearly automatic machine shops, water jet cutting, laser cutting, additive manufacturing, super-plastic forming, the list goes on. It's an industrial revolution that only engineers seem to have noticed while the rest of the world is hypnotised by iPhones. Oh and it happens in the UK, something else media and politicians don't seem to care about. Have look here:

http://www.amrc.co.uk

or here:

http://www.inflite.co.uk/inflite-engine ... pabilities
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User avatar
By GolfHotel
#1549752
I've been out of engineering for 16 years now. Really it seems only yesterday! From what I hear I'm pretty out of date. But in the day we did some pretty cutting edge stuff and much of it was with Titanium. But that was mainly on the EFA as it was then. :D So hardly GA. I'm not sure how diffusion bonding and super plastic forming has progressed. I do wonder if it will ever hit GA though just due to cost.

Making foreplanes for the Eurofighter is very different to making making bits for GA. Although I do remember part of my MSc was studying the super plastic forming of the ARV (was that its name?). And that was before the EFA. So I wouldn't bet on it never reaching GA.

On price I never knew the cost of the foreplanes, but one other much much simpler bit I worked on cost more than I have seen some second hand aircraft be sold for. (And we have arguments about a n increase in a landing fee equivalent to the fuel cost of taxing to the hold. :evil: :evil: )
User avatar
By JonH690
#1549967
Many thanks for all your replies!

It is interesting to hear about your stories and information. I was up the airfield on Saturday and one of the answers was that its something that people don't know a lot about, and its not necessary required on most GA aircraft due to the materials already existing at a much cheaper value which can do the job just as well.

The company I work for is - http://www.vsmpotirus.co.uk/ and I am amazed at the amount of offcuts/scrap we produce and this goes to the scrap man for melting. Me being me, would like to see it being used for a worthwhile cause and to possibly benefit something I'm passionate about.

@ GolfHotel
Interesting you mentioned the ARV (That was it's name), as my father dealt with Richard Noble back in the day for the ARV Super2 from a company called Superform in Worcester and to look into the possibility of doing the super form plastics for the aircraft. The venture was short lived wasn't it!
User avatar
By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1549982
The same core team that did ARV are now doing the Bloodhound.

En route they also did the what became the Liberty, the Thrust SSC, and I was working with them about 15 years ago on a project that sadly got abandoned to develop a twin turbrop commuter aircraft.

The ARV aircraft itself didn't get far (there's one for sale on AFORS at the moment mind you) but the team and the ideas went from strength to strength, and still are

G