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By G-JWTP
#1658552
mmcp42 wrote:... and another thing :)

Q1
if I land at Caen (for example) and clear customs etc there, landing anywhere else in France is just another flight from A to B - no customs required?

Q2
since France and Spain are both Schengen, can I then simply fly from anywhere to anywhere in either country, or do I need to clear customs in Spain?

Q3
sort of similar question, do I need to leave France from a customs airfield, or is that concept just a UK thing?

yes, I know Flight Plans will be need ed
a) for all FIR boundary crossings
b) all flights in Spain in controlled airspace

thank you all for your advice (and patience) :)


3b: I'd be tempted to file a flight plan for any XC flight in Spain.
There are big empty bits, big mountainous bits and big desert bits too.
It is also very hot and cold in places.

Its also a fantastic place to tour. The Biscay coast is amazing.

Top Gear top tip: Understand ' Density Altitude' and the effects of temperature, also 'micro climate'.


G-JWTP
By Mick Elborn
#1658553
Be careful about assuming free movement within Schengen area as countries can temporarily reintroduce border controls. See https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/reintroduction-border-control_en. You will see that France is listed from 30 April 2018 to 30 October 2018. This has caught other flyers out before now.

From previous experience, I would have two routes planned; Your Carcassonne route plus a San Sebastian, purely as weather backups.

Have a great trip.
User avatar
By mmcp42
#1658554
Mick Elborn wrote:Be careful about assuming free movement within Schengen area as countries can temporarily reintroduce border controls. See https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/reintroduction-border-control_en. You will see that France is listed from 30 April 2018 to 30 October 2018. This has caught other flyers out before now.

From previous experience, I would have two routes planned; Your Carcassonne route plus a San Sebastian, purely as weather backups.

Have a great trip.


hmm interesting
I'm guessing (foolish boy) that:
- leaving France - they don't care
- entering Spain at a customs airfield is ok

however the return trip:
- leaving Spain (will be from a customs airfield anyway)
- arriving in France needs to be a "proper" customs point of entry

thanks for the info
trip almost ready - weight of paperwork approaching weight of aircraft!
By Mick Elborn
#1658555
My understanding is that you need to enter and exit France through a Customs Airport, which Carcassonne (LFMK) is. As Spain have not reintroduced Border Controls, according to that link, then no need to arrive at a Customs Airfield, but you are anyway.

Unless things have changed, when submitting a flight plan in Spain it is best to use the system in the Ops/Planning Room at the Airport.
User avatar
By skydriller
#1658556
Mick Elborn wrote:Be careful about assuming free movement within Schengen area as countries can temporarily reintroduce border controls. See https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/reintroduction-border-control_en. You will see that France is listed from 30 April 2018 to 30 October 2018. This has caught other flyers out before now..


Out of interest, what (and why) were you googling to find that page? I believe that what you have posted refers to this giving the french authorities the right to actually have a border control if they wish contravening EU law.

I can assure you that as of May 2018 there was no land border between France and Spain. There has however been a requirement for commercial flights into France from Shengen countries to use customs airports for around two years now. (and there is a NOTAM to that effect)

Unless things have changed VERY recently then this is not an issue for private flights.

Regards, SD..
User avatar
By mmcp42
#1658557
Mick Elborn wrote:My understanding is that you need to enter and exit France through a Customs Airport, which Carcassonne (LFMK) is. As Spain have not reintroduced Border Controls, according to that link, then no need to arrive at a Customs Airfield, but you are anyway.

Unless things have changed, when submitting a flight plan in Spain it is best to use the system in the Ops/Planning Room at the Airport.

for some reason I managed NOT to notice that Carcassone is , in fact, a customs airfield
go to the back of the class, Pike, and don't say another word :(
By Mick Elborn
#1658558
Skydriller - just search "border controls schengen" or similar.

I understand that some British flyers were admonished by the French authorities when they flew from Belgium, I think, to a non-customs in France. They were completely unaware of the reintroduction of border controls, as are many. I have never seen it published in NOTAM. That would be my defence!
User avatar
By GolfHotel
#1658561
It is clear from that AIC link that there is no need to arrive or depart via those airports if coming or going to Schengen countries. For instance from France to Spain. A Belgium border controller checking my departure questioned why he had not been made aware of my arrival. When I said I came from Germany he lost interest. Also in Germany at present there is a Notam that it is NOT required to bother about customs under these circumstances.

Schengen really does simplify travel.
By patowalker
#1658562
Mick Elborn wrote:Be careful about assuming free movement within Schengen area as countries can temporarily reintroduce border controls. See https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/reintroduction-border-control_en. You will see that France is listed from 30 April 2018 to 30 October 2018. This has caught other flyers out before now.


That has nothing to do with private flights. A recent EU directive requires states to notify the Commission when they introduce PNR for intra-EU commercial flights. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2016/681/oj

1. This Directive provides for:
(a) the transfer by air carriers of passenger name record (PNR) data of passengers of extra-EU flights,
(b) the processing of the data referred to in point (a), including its collection, use and retention by Member States and its exchange between Member States.
2. PNR data collected in accordance with this Directive may be processed only for the purposes of preventing, detecting, investigating and prosecuting terrorist offences and serious crime, as provided for in points (a), (b) and (c) of Article 6(2).

Article 2
Application of this Directive to intra-EU flights
1. If a Member State decides to apply this Directive to intra-EU flights, it shall notify the Commission in writing. A Member State may give or revoke such a notification at any time. The Commission shall publish that notification and any revocation of it in the Official Journal of the European Union.
2. Where a notification referred to in paragraph 1 is given, all the provisions of this Directive shall apply to intra-EU flights as if they were extra-EU flights and to PNR data from intra-EU flights as if they were PNR data from extra-EU flights.
By Mick Elborn
#1658563
Whilst this is off topic, my original observation about not assuming free movement within Schengen stands. Basically, be aware that things can change.

At this time a number of EU Countries have officially notified that they will apply the Directive (EU) 2016/681 to intra-EU flights. Currently France and Spain are not on that list, but this could change. You can see the current list here: https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/news/list-member-states-applying-pnr-directive-intra-eu-flights_en

It should not apply to private flights, as the EU Directive applies to Air Carriers and collection of their passenger data. However, that does not mean this is fully understood by Customs/Immigration/Police at every airport.
User avatar
By Paul_Sengupta
#1658564
skydriller wrote:I can assure you that as of May 2018 there was no land border between France and Spain.


However a few months ago there *was* a land border between Belgium and France. There was a police/customs checkpoint set up on the motorway. I was stopped and my car searched. Well, they had a quick look anyway! :D
By patowalker
#1658566
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
skydriller wrote:I can assure you that as of May 2018 there was no land border between France and Spain.


However a few months ago there *was* a land border between Belgium and France. There was a police/customs checkpoint set up on the motorway. I was stopped and my car searched. Well, they had a quick look anyway! :D


French police and customs officers can only carry out checks for a maximum of 12 hours at the same place and they must be random. https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000035932811&categorieLien=id
A short term checkpoint on a motorway can hardly be considered a land border.