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By dublinpilot
#1206795
So a moan on here seemed best. Lets hope he can read.


I would think that a moan on here is totally pointless, and the chances that they can read is very high, but the chances that they will be reading this is very low.

And if by some miricle they do read it, they are very unlikely to recognise themselves.

So all it is, is very much a personal moan that achieves nothing.

I want the jet pilot to know what bad airmanship he displayed and how potentially dangerous such flying is.

This is the bit that I don't understand.
You landed, then he landed immediately after you. Why didn't you just walk up to them and ask what happened?

Perhaps they come on frequency before you did. Perhaps you missed their call. Perhaps the previous unit co-ordinated with the AFIS to pass the legally required information. Or perhaps they simply messed up. If you simply walked up and asked what happened you might have got a straight answer. If they were at fault you might even have got an apology. If they had done things correctly you might have learnt something.

So why did you just ignore the opportunity to talk and instead only consider anomyous options such as CHIRP, MOR and a post on Flyer?
By Anon
#1206803
Hi Dublinpilot. I don't think my OP achieved nothing. Some very interesting attitudes and views have been aired including yours. FTR the jet pushed in front of me, landed first and had dropped his passengers off and was readying for taxi as I taxed back. My OP said ATC was as surprised as me and I confirm his downwind call was the first one made.
If nothing else we will all gain something from this.
Me, that Timothy thinks commercial pilots can justifiably bust an ATZ and he cannot possibly be wrong,
Timothy, that jumped up GA pilots simply don't understand that commercial pilots are better than them,
And you, that this thread did indeed have a point. Tata.
#1206806
Did you speak to your ATC? I know you said they were surprised but here at the Bushe they always know whether someone is incoming but not exactly when.
Mind you, it doesn't excuse infringing an ATZ which they would have done if the first call was the downwind and ATC were unaware, as your OP suggests.

Today a VC10 came blatting through Blackbushe's ATZ. Count yerself lucky Anon! (I expect the tower knew about that one though)

Lastlty, did you see the pilot? Was he wearing a gilet? It would explain Timmy's stance :lol:
By johnm
#1206812
Hmmmm, I don't know if Anon has now gone off for good, but I'm not enamoured of his summary. I fly IFR and VFR and mix it with the big boys, Timothy does the same and indeed has *been* a big boy :-) . Neither of us generally display delusions of grandeur in my experience. I can fly a lot slower than a jet and I'm pretty manoeuvrable (or the 'plane is) so I'm quite willing to give them space.

Indeed I have found myself in a precisely similar scenario to the OP with a King Air VFR at Gloucestershire. I was cross wind joining for 27 when the King Air called down wind. Of course he was miles out going like the clappers on a bomber circuit. It seemed to me that the only safe option was to slow down and route to join behind him on a right base, which I duly did. No drama just a bit of practical give and take as far as I was concerned.
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By leiafee
#1206823
Anon wrote:If nothing else we will all gain something from this.


What? To keep our ears open for faster traffic joining ahead of us?

I'd suggest that's always a good plan.

I'm truly confused as to why you're quite so cross. You weren't delayed, no one was hurt, a FISO (who wld have had no right to 'control' him in the air anyway with the exception of landing clearance) was mildly startled.

Worse things happen. In all probabilty the bizjet pilot knew perfectly well what runway and pressure settings were in use if other people were in the circuit. He heard no conflicting traffic, knew he'd have plenty of time ahead of you, so joined.

There's a remote possibilty he's sitting somewhere going "Ya boo sucks to those slow coaches! I showed them, big fast hotshot that I am, I just love to barge in!" but far more likely he's thinking "Gawd,that was a bit of a rush, hope I didn't tick off that other bloke too much". The chance that he's reading Flyer in floods of remorse and vowing to change his ways at once is fairly remote.

Have you read the self reflection thread? Needs to be a bit more of that and a bit less of lambasting everyone else's mistakes. It'll be as bad as the roads before long otherwise!
By mm_flynn
#1206837
Anon,

From your description the biz jets interaction with you was reasonable. After all he was on the ground deplanning before you were taxiing back so didn't slow you down. Assuming you were doing an overhead or crosswind join and he was positioning for a typical jet downwind, he was probably actually ahead of you joining.

I would suggest talking to the FISO, as he is the one who should be filing a report if the jet actually first communicated a mile inside the ATZ. But I suspect you will find the jet called 'joining downwind' outside the ATZ, having been passed you as traffic, the circuit direction and the QNH by the LARS controller. It would also be pretty surprising if the field didn't have a flight plan from him. It would also seems pretty normal for the radar unit to coordinate the arrival of a jet (in fact any IFR aircraft) with the FISO by telephone (certainly I can't think if an occasion where a FISO hasn't had my details on a proper IFR arrival.

As a note, I wouldn't worry about a chirp or mor being used as part of a case for Controlled Airspace at an airfield that doesn't even have ATC (as in controllers vs. FISOs)
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By Gertie
#1206935
I'm afraid I'm having trouble understanding what the problem was here.

Spamcan doing crosswind join, overhead upwind numbers at circuit height, did I understand that correctly?

Jet passes spamcan's 12 o/clock, on downwind leg, a full circuit width away, did I get that right? (And possibly 500' higher if in the jet circuit?)

Zero danger of collision, zero delay to or diversion of either party, jet driver half way through his cup of tea by the time spamcan lands (not even a wake turbulence issue), is that a correct guess?

I can't see the problem.

So what have I misunderstood?
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By Timothy
#1207024
Anon wrote:I have to say your attitude, if it reflects that of professional pilots, is very worrying.

It's not an attitude, merely an explanation.
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By defcribed
#1207085
Sir Morley Steven wrote:Today a VC10 came blatting through Blackbushe's ATZ.


I saw that VC10 overhead Marlow. Unusual sight that low! Certainly looked like it was heading south.

Whilst I tend to agree with Timothy on most things, I have to say that I find the "you don't realise how much harder it is for them at those speeds" attitude very frustrating whenever I encounter it.

Yes of course we realise it is harder, and we do appreciate the sort of workload they have. We appreciate that at 100kts we have the luxury of time. But the rules about not busting an ATZ don't contain exemptions for busy crews in fast aircraft.

I always take the view that if you're having a challenging time that is not an excuse to break rules and inconveniencing others. Same as when large vehicles try to cut you up on roundabouts or spill onto the wrong side of the road on narrow sections. Yes I know your vehicle is large and you need a lot of room mate, but that is your problem not mine. You can sit tight and wait, because I am not yielding my side of the road to you. What makes you more important?
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By defcribed
#1207086
But equally, it does sound like the jet didn't really cause him a problem.
By mm_flynn
#1207101
defcribed wrote:But the rules about not busting an ATZ don't contain exemptions for busy crews in fast aircraft. it is harder, and we do appreciate the sort of workload they have.

I would agree with that. However, in this case it is the FISO that knows if that happened or not. And from the description, I would guess the jet did not bust the ATZ. So if someone is going to be bent out of shape it should be the FISO not the OP. Hence the suggestion to talk to the one guy who has most of the facts (the FISO).
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By Timothy
#1207109
Part of the problem is at the rules were written when
  1. everyone went at much the same speed
  2. which was slow
  3. and everyone could turn their necks and look around.
Like it or not, those days are over on all three counts.

None of the solutions is palatable...make everywhere controlled airspace, stop fast aircraft using uncontrolled airspace, ban slow light aircraft, enforce Mode S and TCAS...so we have to find a way of living together.

Pros bleat about private flights, amateurs bleat about pros, helicopters bleat about aeroplanes, aeroplanes bleat about helicopters, gliders bleat about powered, powered bleat about gliders and everybody bleats about microlights.

It would be better if we all understood each other's difficulties and imperatives and tried to work with and around them.
By lordbonville
#1207253
Timothy. After a couple of years away from flying and now returning with interest I still see you as the voice of reason on this and other forums.

Having flown passenger jets and light singles into very large busy airports down to my own grass strip (not with a 737) I can say that the obvious thing for the biz jet to do would be get the info about the airfield pattern from local LARS type unit and maintain contact with them till last minute. He probably knew where the crosswind aircraft was anyway and considered it to be most practical to just get on with it.

I wonder what the OP would like to see? An overhead join maybe? Sounds like there was no conflict, other than in OP's head.

Far too often people with one sided views make too much noise.
By cotterpot
#1207281
lordbonville wrote:..............
Far too often people with one sided views make too much noise.


Surely not on the Flyer forum! :)

Good post