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By Anon
#1204667
I was doing a join at my home airfield and was over the upwind numbers when a bizjet made its first call of downwind meaning it entered the ATZ without even finding out the runway direction never mind the other stuff.
The airfield is in uncontrolled airspace and luckily there was nobody about and, despite the windsock being limp, the runway was the same as he guessed.
If I make a complaint it might strengthen any potential case for CAS in my area but I want the jet pilot to know what bad airmanship he displayed and how potentially dangerous such flying is.
CHIRP doesn't really seem to be appropriate and MOR, as I said, might make things worse.
So a moan on here seemed best. Lets hope he can read.
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By Timothy
#1204679
Are you sure that he didn't get the information passed by ATC from the FISO or A/G?

Things happen much faster in a Bizjet, and sometimes there just physically isn't time to do everything that can be done in a slower, simpler aircraft.

I would seek to talk to one of the pilots and ask, in the first instance.
By Anon
#1205472
Hi Timothy. Thanks for your reply.
I don't think so as the FISO appeared just as surprised as I was.
And are you saying "there simply isn't time" is a valid reason for entering an ATZ without making any radio calls?
Sounds like pretty bad TEM to me.
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By Timothy
#1205527
Anon wrote:are you saying "there simply isn't time" is a valid reason for entering an ATZ without making any radio calls?
Sounds like pretty bad TEM to me.

I am talking about there physically and literally being no time and no real option to turn.

You really need to spend some time on the flightdeck of a bizjet before you are too hard on them. They don't want to die either and are constantly weighing up risks of different strategies.

One long transmission, or exchange, blocking a frequency can be six or more miles travelled without being able to get a clearance or advise intentions. An orbit will be bigger than an ATZ, and it's very hard to see what you are turning into.

Actually, it's all about TEM and sometimes flying into the correct place in a circuit may be the least bad of the options available.

A bizjet was not really designed for VFR operations in congested airspace. I can pretty much assure you that their stomachs will have had more butterflies than yours!

Next time, try to talk to them about it. They will almost certainly be gracious and apologetic and explain to you what their limited options were.
By Anon
#1206243
I am astonished by that reply. From the absence of other comments such appalling aimanship appears to be more than tolerated. If a bizjet cant operate safely in uncontrolled airspace it shouldn't be there.
By greggj
#1206336
We had a jet taking off once, and he changed his frequency over to Belfast Approach as soon as the wheels were off the ground, didn't event wait till he is outside ATZ.

CFI had to call few controllers to relay the "message".

Sounds like a similar attitude, but the other way around.
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By Timothy
#1206346
Anon wrote:If a bizjet cant operate safely in uncontrolled airspace it shouldn't be there.

In some ways I agree. It can never be safe to operate a fast aircraft and slow ones in the same environment.

That is why Southend and Farnborough want controlled airspace.

I am not expressing an opinion about how good an idea it all is, just my experience of doing it.

But accusing the pilots of poor Airmanship is unfair. Generally they are massively aware of the issues, and they probably appeal to their bosses not to send them into "bandit country", but the choice is not theirs, it is made by business people who ask whether it is legal and possible, not whether it is a great idea.

It would be very pi to expect people to resign their jobs because of this issue.

It's a big issue, but chucking nastiness and accusations around is probably not helpful.
By johnm
#1206381
Gloucestershire is able to operate a very wide range of types but has full ATC. In New Zealand Wanaka has a similar mix with not even A/G , essentially a Unicom environment. So I don't think Timothy is quite right on this one.

If there was no radio at the OP field at the time then the Bizjet did most of what he could and was faced with looking out for slower traffic in the circuit, not easy. My sympathies are with the Bizjet pilot as he gave the OP the best data he could and followed the circuit pattern in line with Rule 12.

It is likely that he wisely held on to a traffic service before joining the circuit. If there was radio available at the field he might have called earlier with benefit to all concerned, but it's a difficult call.
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By Timothy
#1206435
There are loads of places where it mostly works most of the time.

But in those places, all users are familiar with all likely usages.

The OP made it clear that the arrival of a Bizjet was a surprise and not expected, and that he was not familiar with the different needs of different airspace users. It is then that it doesn't work so well, as this conversation is showing.

That is not to lay any blame at anyone's feet. The issue is about different airspace users not understanding each other's needs and concerns, but still sharing the resource.
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By Paul_Sengupta
#1206638
Timothy wrote:a surprise and not expected


On my QXC in Florida I landed at Ocala. It was uncontrolled so you just made your calls round the circuit. I landed, and as I was taxying in, a DC8 taxied past me on his way out. :shock: That was a bit of a surprise and somewhat unexpected.

I then parked next one up the row to a 727...
By Anon
#1206673
Timothy, you accuse me of nastiness and not being familiar with the different needs of different airspace users. That's your prerogative but you could not be more wrong.
The arrival of the bizjet, if you read my OP again, was a surprise to me and the tower. It is an issue I shall now bring up with the tower and the ATC unit who handled the bizjet before as there needs to be better communication.
This isn't about the rules, its about a jet entering an ATZ without knowing the runway direction or the traffic situation. For all I know the releasing ATC unit might have told them who they could see in the circuit on their radar. I doubt it as they would've said "aircraft joining crosswind". They also might have said what the last known circuit direction was. It changed a few times that day.
You appear to be suggesting that due to commercial pressures a jet pilot might put himself in a dangerous position in uncontrolled airspace. I cannot agree with you that it is unavoidable. I will post any response to discussions with ATC and the releasing unit.
Please try not to accuse people of nastiness as it weakens any valid points you might have.
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By Paul_Sengupta
#1206702
Biz-jets aside, which of us haven't been held onto by an air traffic control service until we "have the field in sight"?

Sometimes if we want to make an early call to the airfield we have to actively request a frequency change.
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By Timothy
#1206719
I'll have one more go, this time by analogy.

If an HGV goes up a narrow country lane to make a delivery, forcing car drivers to reverse, go into ditches etc, do you blame the driver for being thoughtless and careless, or do you blame his employer for not decanting the load into smaller vehicles?

The driver is almost certainly very conscious of, and embarrassed about, the havoc he is causing, and is probably doing his very best to mitigate it.

Calling him names, telling him he is a bad driver and threatening to call the Police is not nice, or helpful, is not empathetic with his problems and doesn't solve yours.