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By Anon
Anonymous poster
#798536
I had booked an aircraft and having arrived in plenty of time wasn't surprised that it was flying, however when it eventually returned late I was given the following reason for the previous flight taking so long.

When lined up on the runway the pilot was given routing information over a close by village for departure in a direction not usually flown by him. On advising he didn't know this village he was told he had been around long enough to know the local area, that this was an accepted routing and he should know it. He repeated he didn't know it and asked for help only to be told to return to the club and familiarise himself with it.

Now not only was this village not a VRP, but it is not even shown on the half mill (it is on the quarter, just). The conversation with ATC after the event had them acknowledge it could have been handled better, but they insisted it was a recognised departure route by local agreement.

To what extent can local agreements be put in place and enforced in such a manner?
User avatar
By Rob P
#798538
Can you just confirm the nature of the ATSU?

A/G, FISO or ATC?

Rob P
User avatar
By Squadgy
#798550
A FISO or A/G operator cannot provide routing instructions, so must be ATC.

Some airfields will publish VFR arrival/ departure routes In the AIP, utilising locations which are not VRPs e.g. Liverpool AD2.2(7):

Enter CTR via VRP Chester, follow M53 Motorway to the Remain east of
Outlet Village at Junction 10, then as directed by ATC.
By Anon
Anonymous poster
#798552
Squadgy wrote:A FISO or A/G operator cannot provide routing instructions, so must be ATC.

Some airfields will publish VFR arrival/ departure routes In the AIP, utilising locations which are not VRPs e.g. Liverpool AD2.2(7):

Enter CTR via VRP Chester, follow M53 Motorway to the Remain east of
Outlet Village at Junction 10, then as directed by ATC.


Indeed Squadgy, but not in this case, nothing published, as ATC acknowledged after the event when asked where we would find it.
User avatar
By Iceman
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#798553
Which ATC unit, which ATZ, which VRP ? Is the VRP notified in any of the common flight guides / AIP ?

Iceman 8)
User avatar
By Rob P
#798555
Whether it is or it isn't the ATCO in the case as related here was doing nothing to contribute to flight safety.

Rob P
By Anon
Anonymous poster
#798558
Iceman wrote:Which ATC unit, which ATZ, which VRP ? Is the VRP notified in any of the common flight guides / AIP ?

Iceman 8)


As it was the flight prior to mine I don't feel it is my place to name names, so would rather not identify which ATZ, my point being the village (which is inside the ATZ) is not a recognised VRP and is not shown on the half mil chart. Had it been a VRP then the ATCO may well have had an argument, although I would still not expect him to send the pilot back once lined up.
User avatar
By Iceman
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#798560
Fair enough on naming, but I'd still like to know whether or not the requested VRP is notified in any of the common flight guides / AIP ? If I were to go to this ATZ for the first time, would I be expected to know the location of the requested point ?

Iceman 8)
By Anon
Anonymous poster
#798561
Iceman wrote:Fair enough on naming, but I'd still like to know whether or not the requested VRP is notified in any of the common flight guides / AIP ?

Iceman 8)


Nope, not in AIP or flight guides. Having checked a call was put in to the tower and the ATCO acknowledged it is not published and were unaware it is not on the half mil chart. They took the callers word as they didn't have one to check.

They claimed it was a local agreement which had not been published.
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By Iceman
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#798563
So how would visiting pilots know about it ?

Iceman 8)
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By dublinpilot
PFMS Team
#798564
As I understand it from what you've said:

1. The point in not a VRP listed in the AIP/shown on the VFR approach chart in the AIP (if there is one),
2. It's not a (non-VRP) place shown on the VFR chart in the AIP (If there is one),
3. It's not shown on the CAA 500K chart,
4. It's not shown on anywhere in the AIP.

If all of these are correct, then I think ATC are way out of line insisting on using it. Why couldn't they just say, "Well, it's a point 3nm south of XXX. Please route to a point 3nm south of XXX". Or better still why don't they get their house in order, and update the entry in the AIP.

Assuming that the pilot didn't do something to actively provoke the situation, then I think it was very unprofessional of ATC to insist on an unknown point being used. Worthy of a discussion with the SATCO, if not more.

dp
User avatar
By Iceman
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#798566
I would expect the AIP / commercial flight guides to show all official VRPs for a given airport.

Iceman 8)
By Anon
Anonymous poster
#798570
Cheers dublinpilot,

Correct on your understanding and I agree with your sentiment that ATC were out of line and alternative instructions could have been issued, including the use of a recognised VRP. I witnessed the call to the tower after the event and although they agreed it could have been handled differently they did not completely back down, the pilot in question did suggest he could have been sent via a recognised VRP only to be told the route given was a recognised local route. He actually asked the ATCO if, in the absence of it being published, he was expected to drive around in his car noting the numerous villages in the area.

Had the route been published I think the ATCO's actions would have been extreme (but within his rights), given it is not published I was a bit flabbergasted.

It just seemed so unreasonable and unlike anything I have heard of that I thought I may be missing something.