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By Josh
#907262
1. Were you a student or qualified?

Qualified

2. Were you current or rusty?

Current

3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school?

Rented aircraft

4. Were you familiar with the aircraft?

Yes

5. Were you using a nav aid?

GPS

6. If so which navaid (e.g. VOR, NDB, GPS)?

GPS

7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust?

Yes

8. Was it in a complex airspace area?

Yes

9. How close to your home airport was the airspace?

Within 20NM

10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust.

Phoenix Class B. The controller didn't think I bust it but I'm sure that I did.

11. Why do you think it happened?

Corner of airspace where there are 3 1000ft steps in the base of the Class B. The area I was in had a 4000ft base, then my route cut a corner with a 5000ft Base and then into an area with a 6000ft Base. Straight on my route and about 3 miles from the 4000ft boundary was a 3900ft hill. I started my climb as I approached the 'corner' thinking I was going to be into the 5000ft area by the time I passed 4000ft, was distracted by the controller giving me a new squawk code and when I looked at the altimeter again I was at 4200' with about a mile to run before the boundary. I immediately stopped the climb and called but the controller said my Mode C indicated 3900ft. I had the correct QNH set so the aircraft's Transponder saved me from a formal 'bust'.

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us.

I sat down after the flight and debriefed myself ruthlessly. I have done this particular climb about 7 or 8 times in the last few weeks and was used to it. I was too busy trying to fly the radio and reset my transponder in a busy RT environment to wonder what the aircraft was doing. The fact that I was receiving a radar service and speaking to the controller probably counted in my favour. I also didn't have to go over the hill - I could just as easily have gone around it but the direct route took me over it. It is of course entirely possible that my transponder was reading correctly and that the controller did me a favour by telling me I hadn't infringed because I was receiving a service and confessed to my apparent sin immediately.
By Anon
#953866
1 Were you a student or qualified?
Student - With instructor
2. Were you current or rusty?
Current - Flight before skills test
3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school?
Club
4. Were you familiar with the aircraft?
Yes
5. Were you using a nav aid?
Yes
6. If so which navaid (e.g. VOR, NDB, GPS)?
DME
7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust?
Yes
8. Was it in a complex airspace area?
No
9. How close to your home airport was the airspace?
7NM
10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust.
LTMA
11. Why do you think it happened?
Departed from a high elevation airport with QFE set not QNH!! - Allowed my self to get distracted during pre flight check which meant I missed setting the altimeter when doing pre flight!

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us.
If something feels wrong (thinking the climb is taking a long time, and it doesn't 'feel' right check!) When it happens dont get angry with self mid air - Wait until you land, work out how you made the mistake and learn from it - At the time I felt like a complete idiot (And still do!) - Aware would have shown correct alt and helped in this situation!
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By Flyin'Dutch'
#953876
Rule #1; use QNH at all times.

Was your instructor asleep?
By alanevans
#953887
Anon, you have identified the biggest single reason not to use QFE, even when flying VFR. There have been others before you and, no doubt, others to come. It's a real shame that we are taught to use QFE in the UK and it's no surprise that it causes airspace busts. Now we could also discuss RPS..................... :)

Alan.
By Anon
#954128
We always use QNH I allowed myself to get distracted and missed it from the check list and being over confident of being extremely confident allowed us both to make an 'im only human' mistake.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
#954149
Hi Anon

Sadly we are all human and that is why it is important to develop some SOPs which will help us to reduce the chance that mistakes like these happen.

For me the altimeter can only be on QNH or on 1013.

By setting the field elevation before you get going you get the first opportunity to set off with something useful and then when you get the QNH on your first radio call you can cross check the setting and the reading against a known datum.

Still no browny points for your instructor, hope he/she paid for the beers that evening.

Live and learn!

PS there are no high elevation airports near the LTMA.
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By Irv Lee
#954152
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:PS there are no high elevation airports near the LTMA.

You've been away from the Netherlands for too long.... ;-)
By Anon
#954153
Irv Lee wrote:
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:PS there are no high elevation airports near the LTMA.

You've been away from the Netherlands for too long.... ;-)


I have flown with lots of instructors and this guy is good

Biggin is high enough elevation to cause a CAS entry.
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By GrahamB
#954172
At a recent IMC rating renewal I was mildly chastised by the Examiner for leaving my second altimeter on QNH, as it should have been set to RPS once in the cruise. Apparently, that's a fail in an IR test.

Is that really the case? If so, what a pointless waste of mental capacity that is.
User avatar
By Merlin83b
#954321
GrahamB wrote:At a recent IMC rating renewal I was mildly chastised by the Examiner for leaving my second altimeter on QNH, as it should have been set to RPS once in the cruise. Apparently, that's a fail in an IR test.

Is that really the case? If so, what a pointless waste of mental capacity that is.


It is not the case. During my test I had Alt 1 on 1013 and Alt 2 on a local QNH. I passed.

I do hope the whole RPS thing goes away soon. Utterly pointless.
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By Merlin83b
#954395
It was mentioned (as a criticism) that I followed that procedure during my CPL test, though. The examiner in that case expected that I would set the RPS once given it.
By Anon
#955117
1. Were you a student or qualified?
Qualified

2. Were you current or rusty?
Very Current

3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school?
Hired

4. Were you familiar with the aircraft?
Very

5. Were you using a nav aid?
GPS, no radio nav aids av

6. If so which navaid (e.g. VOR, NDB, GPS)?
GPS

7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust?
Yes, very clear on a GPS

8. Was it in a complex airspace area?
Not really

9. How close to your home airport was the airspace?
50NM ish

10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust.
Lyneham, but dont think they knew. Had a traffic service at the time from Filton

11. Why do you think it happened?
I wasnt P1 so couldent see the screen of the GPS, P1 had selected a route and chosen direct straight line Airfield A - Airfield B, I had a map and was attempting to follow. First problem was the line went straight through a danger area, I saw Sailsbury so let him carry onto the road and railway, where I showed him where he was. Turned West and went around then he tried to get back to the pink GPS line, I was looking for Colerne underneath and saw it about 2-3NM West of us. P1 was trying to get back on the dam GPS straight line and completly oblivious to the class D airspace and even after I showed him where he was he seemed not to worry about getting out of it.

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us.
Pay attention even when not flying, to help the P1. They may not realise they are doing somehting wrong.
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By Paul_Sengupta
#1388048
Ok, no one has contributed to this thread since 2011 so it's fallen off the radar as it were. There have been new forumites in this time, so in the interests of a renewed push to learn about infringements, if anyone has, here's the place to talk about it, answering the questions on page 1. Also the thread is here for people to read through and learn from others' mistakes.
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By Miscellaneous
#1388055
To date I have not burst airspace, I'm sure not having much in the area to bust helps.

Came close recently; out enjoying a longish bimble and although we were aware and had discussed R610A prior to and during flying we lost track of time rather than position, and almost got caught inside. In the event we checked the time with just sufficient remaining to clear the area by heading directly for the closest boundary. It would have been a slightly unusual bust with us being perfectly okay prior 3pm and not so thereafter.