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By PeteSpencer
#790737
If you have ever bust airspace, at the time :-

1. Were you a student or qualified?
Qualified

2. Were you current or rusty?
Current

3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school?
School

4. Were you familiar with the aircraft?
Yes

5. Were you using a nav aid?
Yes
6. If so which navaid (e.g. VOR, NDB, GPS)?
Detling VOR/DME
7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust?
Yes

8. Was it in a complex airspace area?
Yes

9. How close to your home airport was the airspace?
25NM
10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust.
London TMA

11. Why do you think it happened?
I was heading west tracking towards DET (about 10 miles from DET) in fair (but legal) vis when I heard another a/c call on frequency approaching DET from the west tracking east on a reciprocal heading at the same altitude at DET. So I elected to climb 500ft, but inadvertently kept on climbing entering the bottom of London TMA by about 200ft. I realised immediately and descended below TMA so I was in controlled airspace for about 3 minutes.

My next waypoint was Southend, and like a prat I decided to 'fess up to Southend even though I was OCAS by then.

The nice folk at Southend decided to shop me to the CAA: There then followed a protracted correspondence with the CAA and I got my knuckles rapped: As a 3 months post qualified PPL I had a 'record' and a 'you won't be so lucky next time' on my file.

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us.
I have made the obvious comment elsewhere in the past and got sh@t upon so I won't repeat it here......

Peter
By EGG
#791256
Southend had probably already had a phone call from Swanick. Therefore whether you mentioned or not to Southend. You were probably already reported.
So it would not be a case of Southend 'shopping' you, but instead Southend passing on information they had following an enquiry by Swanick who naturally would be trying to find out who is in contact with you. 3 minutes in CAS is enough to cause quite a few problems as your intentions are unknown. :roll:
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By PeteSpencer
#791288
EGG wrote:Southend had probably already had a phone call from Swanick. Therefore whether you mentioned or not to Southend. You were probably already reported.
So it would not be a case of Southend 'shopping' you, but instead Southend passing on information they had following an enquiry by Swanick who naturally would be trying to find out who is in contact with you. 3 minutes in CAS is enough to cause quite a few problems as your intentions are unknown. :roll:


The above occurrence was in 1994 dear boy. Swanwick was a mere non-existent pipe dream, airspace busts were rare and largely went without investigation especially if they were short lived and caused no loss of separation (as in this case when I discussed it with an ATCO at the time).

My intentions were barn-door obvious : I had already turned onto a heading of Northish as Southend was my next waypoint and was OCAS by the time I 'reported myself'

Southend had no radar at the time and indeed seemed quite surprised when I fessed up, so clearly felt like a bit of sport with an inexperienced PPL>.

If I'd said nothing to Southend it would have gone no further. As it is I have a 'record'.

Peter
By EGG
#791303
Fair enough, so it was quite a while ago. However Southend or anywhere else would not require Radar, as 'LATCC' would try to contact the nearest (most likely unit). Radar or otherwise.
Your intentions may be Barn-door obvious to you, but not to anyone else.
I find it extremely hard to believe any ATC unit would use you as sport, but merely reported the facts presented to them by you.
Besides isn't that academic. You entered CAS and was punished for it. I suspect you have been far more cautious since. Therefore it worked. :twisted:
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By KNT754G
#791374
Equally, since the reported occurence was in 1994 it is unlikely that the CAA would be "heavy handed" if you were to inadvertently infringe CAS tomorros, you have had a clean record for 15 years (unless there is something you are not sharing with us :D )

As EGG said it is most likely that West Drayton (predecesor to Swanwick) had seen the bust and were trying to trace you anyway.
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By PeteSpencer
#791375
How would they have known my altitude?: The transponder was mode A only in those days..........

For all they knew I was well below their CAS (Base 3500 at that point.)

I still think, in my naivety, I was daft to 'fess up.

Peter
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By KNT754G
#791587
With Mode A onlt then unless an airliner had reported an airprox (or airmiss as it was then) they would never have known.
As to the wisdom of confessing back then, I feel we must leave that for history to judge; I would most emphatically recommend to anybody these days to own up quickly.

CAA attitude to such inadvertent transgressions has changed over the years as well, they do seem to view the situation as a learning opportunity (for all) rather than a punishment opportunity (for one), which is good. What is also good is that such an event can spark so much debate on here, or even that so many people are prepared to admit to their errors in the past. Hopefully that will engender an attitude of a) caution near CAS and b) openness to others such that all can benefit and enhance safety all round.
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By Paul_Sengupta
#791889
[stuck record]If they didn't rap people on the knuckles, it would help to "engender an attitude of...openness to others such that all can benefit and enhance safety all round".[/stuck record]
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By PeteSpencer
#791945
I agree: My trivial self confessed bust, reported after I was way back OCAS with its ensuing knuckle rapping correspondence 'we'll let you off this time but you won't be so lucky next time' message has for the last 15 years had a far different effect on me than it it would have had if I hadn't reported it and by the comments on here it most likely would have gone undetected.

And I'm not sure it affected me in a constructive way. :roll:

Peter

Edited for clarity
By alanevans
#796519
If you have ever bust airspace, at the time :-

1. Were you a student or qualified? Qualified

2. Were you current or rusty? Current

3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school? Own aircraft

4. Were you familiar with the aircraft? Yes

5. Were you using a nav aid? Yes

6. If so which navaid (e.g. VOR, NDB, GPS)? GPS plus VOR/DME

7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust? Yes

8. Was it in a complex airspace area?

It included a temporary complexity, a RA(T)

9. How close to your home airport was the airspace? 70nm

10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust. Daventry CTA 12dme SW of DTY.

11. Why do you think it happened?

a) Primary cause was poor prioritising of tasks in high workload situation -- dodging CBs in cloud conditions of 80% IMC giving 20% chance to look around for CBs plus need to remain close to tops; nervous passenger; trying to obtain radar service from Brize, complicated by change of hours necessitating three changes of frequency in the course of about 90 seconds; need to avoid temporary restricted airspace for Silverstone aerobatic champs as well as regular Hinton parchuting area

b) secondary cause was strong tailwind, giving higher groundspeed than normal by about 25-30%.

c) above lead to late check of DTY radial/dme which I used to indicate lowering of base of CAS. When I dialed up the frequency I was virtually in CAS and 1500 ft too high.

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us.

I did not have the sector frequency to hand so was unable to contact the Daventry area controller. When I got home, i went through the events in my mind and through my plog. I decided that I definitely did bust the CTA and was probably inside for 1-2 minutes. So I phoned TC to 'fess. As it happened, the guy who answered the phone was the same person who was working Daventry and he had seen my (London Info) squawk and mode C inside CAS, but descending quickly. No traffic was affected and he planned to take no action. I ran through the reasons behind the bust and he suggested that it would make a good CHIRP. I have completed the CHIRP report, so it may be published later this year for everybody's benefit.

I think the main lesson is: when the workload is high, it's even more important to prioritise.

You live and learn.

Alan.
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By Cub
#797662
You didn't do it again today did you? :wink:

Somebody was activating CAIT at lunchtime on a Birmingham squawk north of Daventry at 5.2 that upset my colleagues on TC Midlands.
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By Morley
#811083
If you have ever bust airspace, at the time :-

1. Were you a student or qualified? qualified (FI)

2. Were you current or rusty? current

3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school? school

4. Were you familiar with the aircraft? yes

5. Were you using a nav aid? no

6. If so which navaid (e.g. VOR, NDB, GPS)?

7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust? yes

8. Was it in a complex airspace area? yes

9. How close to your home airport was the airspace? 20 NM

10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust. London TMA

11. Why do you think it happened? Wrong side of CPT VOR

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us. Sorry.

Ta

Steve
By jane
#813853
If you have ever bust airspace, at the time :-

Twice: 1) Newly qualified as P1 2) More experienced as navman - I know it is P1's responsibility etc but we share the load and as navman I should know where we are, what we are doing and what we intend to do at any time.

1. Were you a student or qualified? PPL

2. Were you current or rusty? Current

3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school? Rented

4. Were you familiar with the aircraft? Yes

5. Were you using a nav aid? If eyes and chart are navaids then yes!

6. If so which navaid (e.g. VOR, NDB, GPS)? Eyes and chart

7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust? 1)Yes when I saw a 737 under my left wing 2) Yes when looking at the altimeter and then getting a call from Redhill

8. Was it in a complex airspace area? Depends what is defined as complex. Do not consider pootling round northern EGSS as complex or the EGKK/EGLL corridor as that complex.

9. How close to your home airport was the airspace? 1) 15nm 2)60nm

10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust. 1) EGSS 2) EGKK

11. Why do you think it happened? 1)Kept Duxford on my right for too long without checking the DI/compass. Had been in exactly the right place at the right time, maybe too cocksure, then was uncertain of position as did not look right, wondered about unusual airfield ahead of me and realised what it was when I saw the 737. 2) Climbout from Redhill turned right at the wrong road. Had thought it would be dual carriageway and it was not. Had already gone a bit high and asked P1 to come down a bit, then realised must have gone too far and told P1 to turn right immediately. By the time Redhill checked us we were out of controlled airspace.

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us.
Use all navaids available. After 1) I learnt to use the GPS my son had given me, only very basic but it generally alerts me to being in the wrong place before I get there.
Talk to someone when unsure of position. For 1) I should have immediately called 120.62 to explain the problem and ask for assistance rather than just doing a 180 turn to get out the way I came in. I had only clipped the edge but enough to get a bollocking when I got back to base to be greeted with 'and where were you at 16.15?'
For 2) I should have checked exactly which road to turn at before leaving the airfield and asked when not sure in the air. Again think we only clipped the edge but was enough to get a call to ask us where we were. We are thinking of getting a newer GPS, preferably with batteries that do not run out! That new one discussed on forum looks exactly right.

Having learnt a lot between the two events I was on the phone to both Redhill and Gatwick with profuse apologies as soon as I got home.
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By gfry
#852465
Here is the thread I started on my Class A bust. In it is the letter I wrote to the CAA. As usual I got the flamed response and the praise response from forumites.
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By George
#890563
. Were you a student or qualified? Qualified

2. Were you current or rusty? Current

3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school? Club a/c

4. Were you familiar with the aircraft? Yes

5. Were you using a nav aid? Yes

6. If so which navaid? Basic Pilot III GPS, no height info, chart and Mk1.

7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust? Yes

8. Was it in a complex airspace area? Isn't anywhere in the SE around London pretty complex?

9. How close to your home airport was the airspace? 20nm

10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust. London TMA between Sevenoaks and DET

11. Why do you think it happened?

Brain fart. I was at 2300' all the way past Biggin and on to Sevenoaks travelling east. I had got 3,000' as the planned height for DET in my head, but wasn't close enough to start my climb and should have paused and checked my PLOG and chart. Previous to this I had asked F'boro East if the NOTAM for a display over DET was still active and wanted to make sure I had enough height to go over the top if necessary. He'd said he wasn't aware of any traffic around there. A few minutes later (I was also taking some PAX on a sightseeing trip round Kent so was fairly busy pointing things out as well) I got a call to "Report your height" immediately realised I was wrong, apologised and descended to 2400.

A few minutes later I got a call saying that some 'paperwork' would follow the bust. Felt pretty terrible about it but carried on the trip, and the rest of the flight watched my height like a hawk!

On my return I telephoned Farnborough and the guy who'd been on station called me back - very pleasant and explained that normally I'd have been spotted earlier but he was actually looking up the NOTAM I'd mentioned and was busy with other traffic (though not in my immediate area) - the paperwork it seemed had been requested by London City and he explained it was more a formality but something that he was obliged to tell the pilot it had been filed. "I bet it ruined the rest of your trip that!" he said, and also that I would probably have to respond to a human factors type survey from the CAA, but hopefully that would be all.

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us.
Fess up. Call the controller. Make them realise that you are aware you ballsed up and have learned from it as well!