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By SteveN
#757832
Just a few questions that can be answered anonomously.
I have no axe to grind. This might just help understand what is going on.
Anyone can answer, you don't have to be registered on Flyer.

L0g1n as "anon" with passw0rd "seager"

If you have ever bust airspace, at the time :-

1. Were you a student or qualified?

2. Were you current or rusty?

3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school?

4. Were you familiar with the aircraft?

5. Were you using a nav aid?

6. If so which navaid (e.g. VOR, NDB, GPS)?

7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust?

8. Was it in a complex airspace area?

9. How close to your home airport was the airspace?

10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust.

11. Why do you think it happened?

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us.

Ta

Steve

Edited to include the "anon" login information
Last edited by SteveN on Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
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By leiafee
#757870
Well since the sorry tale's already on the forum ;-)
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=39761

1. Were you a student or qualified?

PPL

2. Were you current or rusty?

As current as I ever get.

3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school?

Shareoplane

4. Were you familiar with the aircraft?

Yep

5. Were you using a nav aid?

Nope.

7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust?

Note until after it happened and the unit we were talking to told us. Was convinced I was "uncertain of position" in the opposite direction actually.

8. Was it in a complex airspace area?

Trying to get down the "gap" between Southampton and Bournemouth on the way to IoW

9. How close to your home airport was the airspace?

130miles ish

10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust.

Southampton CTR

11. Why do you think it happened?

Long waffle on that in the origina thread but to summarise: Last minute change of plan before flying -- did write on chart but didn't gaze at it as long as I normally do. Borrowed GPS I had little idea how to work, two pilots sharing the navigationa dn flying with non-existant CRM so neither of us were certain how certain the other one was... dodging clouds which appeared right as we got near the "complicated bit", failing to spot VRP despite being given which direction to look by the radar unit we were talking to.

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us.

They routed us direct with lots of help and made sure we knew where we were before offloading us, rather than kicking us back out of the airspace to go on our merry. The Phonecal from the ground afterwards was less a bollocking and more a making sure we didn't do the same thing on the way home. We were talking to them and squawking mode-C before and during the incident.
By Anon
#757884
1. Were you a student or qualified?
Student

2. Were you current or rusty?
Current (flying once a week where possible during training)

3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school?
School

4. Were you familiar with the aircraft?
Yes

5. Were you using a nav aid?
No

6. If so which navaid (e.g. VOR, NDB, GPS)?
n/a

7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust?
Not at the time. I realised I had done it later when driving home and thinking about the flight. Not a nice feeling.

8. Was it in a complex airspace area?
Reasonably - under the LTMA with stepped levels (which despite the complexity I think are a good thing).

9. How close to your home airport was the airspace?
Approx 20nm.

10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust.
Vertically into an LTMA 'step'.

11. Why do you think it happened?
My second solo navex. I had left the altitudes blank on my plog due to there being cloud around. I wanted to get up higher than 3000ft (perceived lower risk of mid-air collisions), but it was cloudy and I wasn't sure if the cloudbase would be high enough. So I planned on finding out how high the cloudbase was while climbing out and then fly a sensible level below that. I did, and ended up cruising at 2800ft. All well and good for most of the route with the LTMA base being 3500ft. But one waypoint was a couple of miles inside a section of the LTMA with a base of 2500ft. Oops. Prior to departure the instructor (not my usual instructor) briefly mentioned the LTMA boundaries. But he only had a cursory glance at my plog and didn't insist I fill in the altitudes before departure. So if I had to apportion blame I reckon it was 50% my fault (poor planning) and 50% the instructor's - he should have paid a little more attention to my plog and been stricter with me on the altitudes. I'm sure opinion will vary on that though :lol:

I was squawking 7000 with mode C and receiving a FIS from a LARS unit at the time. On first contact I used the student prefix. When I passed my initial message I gave my altitude of 2800ft and my planned route, including the offending waypoint, but they didn't warn me. Neither did they warn me while I was infringing. I fully realise it was not their duty to do so, but they weren't particularly busy (on R/T at least), so I was a little surprised they didn't call me. After the infringement they didn't say anything either, although 10 miles or so later they asked me to confirm my current position; presumably so they could confirm who I was as they'd probably just received a call on the landline from Swanwick!

I called the club when I got home and spoke to the instructor to tell him what I'd done. His first reaction was to defensively say he'd briefed me on the boundaries, presumably thinking through out loud how he could defend what had happened to the authorities if need be! He asked if I'd been squawking mode C which I had, and said because it was only a minor infringement, and I'd been talking to a LARS unit with mode C we probably wouldn't hear any more about it. We didn't.

I learnt about flying from that, and haven't infringed since.

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us.
Think I've covered it in my reply to 11!
By Anon
#758128
1. Were you a student or qualified?
qualified

2. Were you current or rusty?
current

3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school?
own

4. Were you familiar with the aircraft?
yes

5. Were you using a nav aid?
yes

6. If so which navaid (e.g. VOR, NDB, GPS)?
GPS

7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust?
not until afterwards

8. Was it in a complex airspace area?
not really

9. How close to your home airport was the airspace?
100+ miles

10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust.
Class A

11. Why do you think it happened?
Entered cloud below cliff-top height near Islay, decided to climb out of it and instead of going into Islay as planned, route directly home (other side of the penines). Contacted Scottish and was fine until the cloud tops kept rising. I kept asking to go higher, they kept agreeing. When I signed off with them they said 'Manchester have been informed' at which point I scrabbled for the map and guessed I must have been bouncing along the bottom of A airspace (with only an IMC)

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us.
I was disconcerted about the unexpected cloud - Islay were reporting no problems both before take off and during the flight it was CAVOK at Oban when I took off so the actual route was unplanned. The tops of the clouds were much higher than expected and I'd never looked at what went on above FL 90 in that area of the chart. I didn't want to fly in the cloud as it was below 0C and I hadn't set up any other nav aids and the clouds were towering cu and looked scary!

Never heard from anyone about it.
User avatar
By KNT754G
#758142
1. Were you a student or qualified?
I was a licensed FI for goodness sake!

2. Were you current or rusty?
Very current

3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school?
Privately owned

4. Were you familiar with the aircraft?
Yes

5. Were you using a nav aid?
Yes

6. If so which navaid (e.g. VOR, NDB, GPS)?
NDB/DME approach to 01 at EGTK

7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust?
Not at the time

8. Was it in a complex airspace area?
No

9. How close to your home airport was the airspace?
100+ Nm away

10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust.
Brize niceone CTR

11. Why do you think it happened?
Didn't read the IAP chart properly and confusion between me and ATC as to which approach had been requested/cleared.

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us.
I asked for the NDB/DME to 01 without noticing the small print which said not available for training and clearance to enter Brize CTR required.
Didn't listen carefully enough to the ATC approach clearance and they didn't challenge my (inadequate) readback which didn't specify the approach.
User avatar
By Timothy
#758224
1. Were you a student or qualified?
Qualified

2. Were you current or rusty?
Current

3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school?
Own

4. Were you familiar with the aircraft?
Very

5. Were you using a nav aid?
Yes

6. If so which navaid (e.g. VOR, NDB, GPS)?
GPS

7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust?
Yes

8. Was it in a complex airspace area?
Yes

9. How close to your home airport was the airspace?
200nm

10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust.
Leeds Bradford

11. Why do you think it happened?
I was taking off (from Crosfield Moor) in a hilly region in filthy weather. I executed a balls-out climb in order to get away from the terrain in IMC. I was in contact with LBA Approach. I failed to stop the climb and entered the base of their zone by about 200'. They were not bothered, as I was already talking to them.

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us.
Fess up as soon as you possibly can.
User avatar
By Waveflyer
#758244
If you have ever bust airspace, at the time :-

1. Were you a student or qualified?
Qualified

2. Were you current or rusty?
Current

3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school?
Own

4. Were you familiar with the aircraft?
Yes

5. Were you using a nav aid?
Yes

6. If so which navaid (e.g. VOR, NDB, GPS)?
GPS

7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust?
Very

8. Was it in a complex airspace area?
Not really, but careful attention needed

9. How close to your home airport was the airspace?
!00nm

10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust.
Manchester LLC

11. Why do you think it happened?
Flying northbound at 1200' on the listening freq 118.575 squaking 7366. Manchester called asking for aircraft in my position to report. Called back giving position alt and QNH. They gave me their QNH which I set and then saw I was at about 1400'. VERY annoyed because I had the correct info but had forgotten to set it.

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us.
The weather conditions were bad and I had a lot to do but at least the system worked.
User avatar
By Pete L
#758258
1. Were you a student or qualified?

PPL

2. Were you current or rusty?

Current

3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school?

School

4. Were you familiar with the aircraft?

Yes apart from its GPS

5. Were you using a nav aid?

No

6. If so which navaid (e.g. VOR, NDB, GPS)?

N/A

7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust?

Oh yes

8. Was it in a complex airspace area?

No

9. How close to your home airport was the airspace?

10nm

10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust.

London TMA

11. Why do you think it happened?

Failure to fly the plan on a 6 minute leg. Listened to the aerodrome traffic and decided to route further east rather than conflict in a known alley. After that, I was making the ground fit the chart in an area which whilst local was unfamiliar - its clearly very easy to become confused about how far away things are on a clear day. 35knot wind did the rest.

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us.

I hadn't planned an avoidance strategy, because I didn't expect to be going in that direction.

This was within easy sight of two of the most well-known landmarks in the SE, with VOR and GPS in the aircraft available if required.

Turning round at 6 minutes, putting in a crosscut on the VOR, knowing more about an *unfamiliar GPS or even looking around more carefully - since I must have been more or less in line of sight of the intended destination at all times - could all have prevented the bust.
User avatar
By Gertie
#758291
Everyone has, surely?

1. Were you a student or qualified? - PPL
2. Were you current or rusty? - current
3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school? - rented
4. Were you familiar with the aircraft? - yes
5. Were you using a nav aid? - trying to
6. If so which navaid (e.g. VOR, NDB, GPS)? - VOR
7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust? - yes
8. Was it in a complex airspace area? - no
9. How close to your home airport was the airspace? - dozen miles or so
10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust. - Luton
11. Why do you think it happened?

Weather worse than forecast, I might well have coped with the navigation if I hadn't been forced down low and dodging clouds and ending up with a solid wall of low cloud ahead of me. So I abandoned the trip, did a 180, and got Luton to help me home. At one point with a tiny cloud right in front of my I went above it when I should have gone below, busting Luton by a couple of hundred feet. The controller asked my my height, so I said whoops sorry and descended again, end of story.

So, overloaded basically, but at least I asked for, and got, appropriate help.

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us.

In trouble - talk to someone !
User avatar
By Keef
#758463
1. Were you a student or qualified?
Qualified

2. Were you current or rusty?
Current

3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school?
Group aircraft

4. Were you familiar with the aircraft?
Very

5. Were you using a nav aid?
Yes

6. If so which navaid (e.g. VOR, NDB, GPS)?
VOR

7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust?
Yes

8. Was it in a complex airspace area?
Relatively

9. How close to your home airport was the airspace?
30nm or thereabouts.

10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust.
The 1500 feet corner of Stansted near North Weald.

11. Why do you think it happened?
I was pointing out North Weald to the WW2 pilot in the RHS and not watching the chart.

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us.
It would be harder to make the same error now, with the GNS430 displaying the airspace to me. Those who say GPS is the spawn of the devil are 180° out of alignment. A decent GPS used properly is a good way of not getting lost and not busting airspace.

Stansted were very relaxed about it, because I was talking to them anyway.
User avatar
By Night Hawk
#758476
1. Were you a student or qualified?

Student

2. Were you current or rusty?

Current

3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school?

School Aircraft

4. Were you familiar with the aircraft?

Very

5. Were you using a nav aid?

No

6. If so which navaid (e.g. VOR, NDB, GPS)?

7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust?

Yes

8. Was it in a complex airspace area?

LTMA

9. How close to your home airport was the airspace?

About 20NM

10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust.

2500 feet LTMA over Thurrock

11. Why do you think it happened?

Did not look at the Airspace on a Divert lesson

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us.

I hope never to make the same mistake again, and by checking airspace on your divert route is a big help 8)
By Anon
#758820
1. Were you a student or qualified?

Fairly new PPL

2. Were you current or rusty?

Current

3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school?

Rented

4. Were you familiar with the aircraft?

Yes

5. Were you using a nav aid?

No

6. If so which navaid (e.g. VOR, NDB, GPS)?

7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust?

Yes

8. Was it in a complex airspace area?

No

9. How close to your home airport was the airspace?

20 nm

10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust.

Luton CTR

11. Why do you think it happened?

Local short bimble for currency. Depart Elstree, track the western edge of the Luton CTR northwards to Leighton Buzzard, one anticlockwise orbit of Leighton Buzzard and back to Elstree, track the railway southbound until you see the A41 at Tring - then cross and follow the A41. What could be simpler?

At the last minute I decided to do a clockwise orbit of Leighton Buzzard. So I'm now looking for the railway line as I reach what must be almost the end of the orbit. I'm heading someting like 200 degrees and the sun is starting to get in my eyes, especially as the scratchy old windscreen seems to split the strong low sunlight into a lot of glary little points of light.

But there is the railway! Great. Follow it, find the A41 and maybe play about a bit on the way back.

After not very long, it occurred to me that there was something not quite right about this railway line. The fact that I had had to turn south east to follow it had not reached the processing part of the brain. Nor had the lack of overhead gantries (it's the West Coast Main Line, FFS!) and then .. a roundabout! I had picked up and was following a main road, which led south-east out of Leighton Buzzard and into the Luton CTR. That bit of the CTR is "delegated to Dunstable Downs", but is nevertheless controlled airspace.

I turned west to get out quick and got the fright of my life when the Dunstable Downs glider tug + one glider climbed out in front of me. Seemed rather close.

Once back at Elstree, I telephoned the Luton approach controllers (not an easy number to find, by the way) and fessed up. They were absolutely fine about it - "yes, we did see you, but no problems - just try not to do it again."

Called Dunstable Downs the next day to apologise to the tug pilot - he had no recollection of the event, so obviously can't have seen me.

The lesson for me was that a new challenge (low sun) turned my very easy bimble into an infringement.

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us.

Deffo a good idea to make your apologies ASAP. If I'd have been more experienced, I'd have taken a service from Luton on 129.55 all along, or at least dialled them up once I knew I was infringing.
User avatar
By Rich T
#758997
Well technically it wasn't me, since I was Pu/t, but it was my fault.

1. Were you a student or qualified?
Qualified (only just - 3rd flight since skills test) but undergoing differences training on FADEC.

2. Were you current or rusty?
Current

3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school?
Rented

4. Were you familiar with the aircraft?
No

5. Were you using a nav aid?
No (although instructor had suggested GPS, I insisted on using only PPL-taught methods)

6. If so which navaid (e.g. VOR, NDB, GPS)?
n/a

7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust?
I was aware that it was there, but I wasn't aware where I was :)

8. Was it in a complex airspace area?
Not really.

9. How close to your home airport was the airspace?
40nm

10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust.
D123

11. Why do you think it happened?
Flying south through the Colerne corridor, I mistook Westbury for my intended waypoint of Frome and set my next leg heading from there, which clipped the nose of D123. I was working London Info and squawking 1177 so they were able to contact us and advise avoiding action. The danger area was cold at the time, although I didn't know beforehand.

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us.
I was glad that I was working London Info so that we were warned of our bust. We had to call Salisbury on arrival at Compton Abbas, so I guess they had seen the squawk and contacted London.

Had I been on 7000 or even not transponding we might have 'got away with it' but the consequences of that could have been much worse. Nowadays, I generally prefer to be working (or at least listening to) a unit on a squawk so that I am easily contactable, unless I am either well away from anything or I need to be in contact with a nearby airfield e.g. a courtesy call.
User avatar
By Jenny
#759588
1. Were you a student or qualified?
qualified

2. Were you current or rusty?
current

3. Was it in your own/group aircraft or rented/school?
own

4. Were you familiar with the aircraft?
yes

5. Were you using a nav aid?
yes

6. If so which navaid (e.g. VOR, NDB, GPS)?
VOR

7. Were you aware of the airspace you bust?
yes

8. Was it in a complex airspace area?
no

9. How close to your home airport was the airspace?
200+nM

10. Only if you wish, say which airspace you bust.
Class D

11. Why do you think it happened?
Was flying from Yorkshire to Oban. Flew high over the Penines planning to talk to Prestwick and get a clearance across the edge of their airspace. Couldn't manage to talk to Scottish, was very broken. Called Preswick approach lots of times and got no answer (was completely silent), checked the frequency from the book and the map (maybe they changed their frequency). Decided to descend from a flight level and cross below their airspace. I was still flying with the altimeter set on 1013, but also had the Barnsley Pressure on the other altimeter. Had the bright idea to listen into their ATIS and got a QNH and although I had decided to fly well below their airspace to allow for the unknown, I found I was really close... maybe even 50 feet inside it :oops:

12. Any other comment that might help the rest of us.
Never underestimate how much your altimeter will change when you change the pressure setting, it can be very different across the country and hugely different from the Standard Pressure setting. I was sqwawking throughout with my lovely new Mode S which was happily telling me (and everyone else) how high I was in FL (another reason I couldn't imagine I would be too high).