An anonymous forum to allow you to share those moments in flying that caused you concern. You can post without registering a username, registered users can log out to post
User avatar
By Katamarino
#755255
Well, I had always thought that it would not really be a big deal; instrument flying in PPL training, and with the University Air Squadron was fairly easy, and good fun. However, when it's real IMC, you've got Schipol Class A above you, ground only a few hundred feet below you, and three passengers, it's a very different story.

The four of us had planned to take one of the club 172s from Rotterdam up to Lelystad for lunch. When we woke this morning it was raining lightly, but the cloudbase was up around 2000ft and vis was 10k+ The forecast was for steady improvement throughout the day, with mainly CAVOK by lunch. We made our way to the airport, and sure enough the rain slackened and conditions generally improved. Another look at the rainfall radar confirmed that the worst was well past.

We took off and flew northeast, towards Hilversum, to Lelystad which is 50nm away. Visibility out to the west was excellent, and poor to the east. As we headed north, staying under 1200ft to keep clear of Schipol, a cloudbank rose up on the west, and things cleared to the east. We were pushed east off the direct route, as with Schipol in the way we couldn't climb up to 1500ft which would have taken us over the bank and into clearer air. We made our way to a position 10 miles south east of Lelystad, with cloud still in the way, and found a gap heading towards the field. Lelystad Radio confirmed that weather there was 2,000ft ceiling, with 10k+ vis. Heading through the gap, it suddenly closed up fast. Within seconds we were completely in the middle of it. Thankfully, I managed to stay calm, and commenced a 180 degree turn to the left, with carb heat on and being careful to maintain height. It seemed like it took forever to complete the turn, and then forever again to exit the cloud. It took a lot longer to get out that it took to get in, thats for sure.

When we got back into clear air, the cloubase had taken a dive and more cloud had come up; I never realised it could change so much so fast. We made a beeline back towards Rotterdam, and the allegedly clearer air; even at 500ft we were still in and out of cloud. It must have been down to 100 or 200ft in places, far worse than anything forecast, or that we'd seen so far. After following the river back to the South West, we zoomed merrily through the prohibited area over the Royal Palace, intentionally; it was the the only way we could go without getting back into the thick of it. Still down at 500, and with a seriously beady eye on the chart and outside for masts, we made for Hilversum which was only 3 miles away. I first saw the field as we turned onto a tight downwind, and pulled off a surprisingly smooth landing.

On the ground, I called Flight Service and let them know of our diversion and closed the plan. I then called the club, and asked the advice of an instructor about whether to phone in our area bust. He suggested just to wait and see if they called us, as given the conditions, there was nothing else we could have done.

We sat and had lunch, and within an hour the weather was as forecast; cloud up above 2000, 20k+ vis, and even blue sky starting to appear. We had an uneventful flight back to Rotterdam.

That was the first time I've ever been up there, wishing I was down here.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#755341
This is why the UK IMC rating is so valuable. I found myself facing a cloud bank today while entering controlled airspace. I just told the controller I was now in IMC and requested upgrade to IFR and simply carried on. The controller vectored me around a bit to be sure I was clear of other IFR traffic and then I got clear and resumed my original plan. Had it stayed poor I could have flown the ILS into the nearby airport and all would have been well.
User avatar
By Katamarino
#755728
I am certainly thankful that Holland does not have much in the way of mountains ;) Of course, I wouldn't have taken off with a lowish ceiling in anything other than flat land...
User avatar
By Katamarino
#755752
And thanks for sharing yours; I should add that I was merely adding my own thoughts from the day about taking off should there have been hills, I wasn't trying to pass any kind of judgement on your actions. I realise looking back how it could have come across.
User avatar
By Timothy
#755833
There are four weather qualifications open to you.
  1. You could get a full JAA IR, but the JAA have made that as difficult as they can, presumably because they want people to die.
  2. You could get an FAA IR. This is easier to get than a JAA IR, and just as good, but only valid in an N reg aircraft, but will still save your life in a PH one.
  3. You could get a UK IMCR. This is easier to get than an IR, not as good, but only valid in UK airspace, but will still save your life in Dutch Airspace.
  4. You could forget about ratings and just be taught how to fly safely and well on instruments, and go up with an instructor every few months for a refresher. Every time you entered cloud you would be breaking the law. But you would not die.
IMO every one who flies in Eire, UK, Norway, France or Benelux should do one of these things. CFIT is far too common.
User avatar
By Morley
#756328
Timothy wrote:IMO every one who flies in Eire, UK, Norway, France or Benelux should do one of these things. CFIT is far too common.

Indeed. Recent stats on fatalities from loss of control in IMC showed 13 deaths in (if I remember) twently years 11 of which had no instrument flying rating at all. One had a full IR and the other and IMC. Based on those stats If the 11 with no rating had an IMC 10 of them would still be alive (really rough calcs but it reinforces a point)
User avatar
By Welshy747
#756422
And its the stats that Morley highlights that led me to do the IMC course as soon as I finished my PPL! I would recommend to anyone in the UK to do this as it certainly improved my flying and also my awareness of the CFIT accidents.
By WhirlyGreyGit
#775893
Also, it's worth pointing out that most people after very little training can fly reasonably well in IMC.

However, the real value of extended training is to teach you how to fly in IMC when things start going against you, such as vacuum failure, partial panel etc.....
User avatar
By Katamarino
#776491
I have had a fair bit of instrument training, over and above the PPL stuff - unusual attitude recovery, partial panel, and various different approaches, both simulated and in actual IMC. However, the main difference I found in this situation from the practice is the emotional impact of it being unexpected, and there being no instructor in the seat next to you as a safety net! That's the real killer I think, as instrument flight as described above I find rather easy generally (when there isn't the stress and responsibility, not to mention illegality!)

I intend to do an IMC or FAA IR asap.
User avatar
By Rob P
#776600
My inadvertent IMC happened to me on my QXC when I flew into a snowstorm.

It could a tribute to my instructors that I survived.

On the other hand it might have been that as nobody had taught me the idea of doing a 180 I just kept flying towards my destination with a few gentle steers from the military controller I was working with when it happened (Wyton). If I had attempted a 180 I wonder if I would have lived through it?

Rob P
User avatar
By Gertie
#776696
Rob P wrote:I flew into a snowstorm

"If you can see through it you can fly through it", otherwise don't try ... but I don't think I've ever heard an instructor say that.
User avatar
By Rob P
#776952
I suppose I was in white out for no more than six or seven minutes. It just seemed at the time that they represented the largest portion of the life I had left to me.

Looking back I still think that with the training I had, concentrating on flying straight and level was a better option than turning 180 degrees.

I was just lucky that the extent of the snowstorm was less than my tank range.

Luck, not skill.

Rob P
User avatar
By KNT754G
#777001
If you were in whiteout conditions, especially falling snow, for six or seven minute as a student pilot then I think you should have made an ENORMOUS donation to the religious body of your choice on landing!

You defied all the odds which clearly indicate that you should have been wearing wings and a halo (or alternatively tail and horns) in far less than half of that time.
User avatar
By Timothy
#777012
How are those odds calculated? I am not arguing, I am sure you are right, but I have just not seen data about students entering IMC inadvertently. Usually instructors are careful to prevent it.
User avatar
By mmcp42
#777027
I seem to recall that untrained entry into IMC usually involves life expectancy around 1.5 to 2.5 minutes before close encounter with a small planet