[Anon]

Just a small post to remind you never to feel bullied into a situation you don’t feel comfortable in. Following on from viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54674 (not cleared to land thread) where people talk of going around when no landing clearance is given…

Here is my experience… I was on final approach at a busy and well know airfield on the south coast when another aircraft was cleared to line up and then cleared to take off, however he proceeded to wait for what seemed hours at the threshold before rolling (whereas I expedite departures when I know an aircraft is on final!). When I was at about 300ft he started moving and we were told to expect a late landing clearance. I said going around to my passenger (a very experienced pilot) as I was about to advance the throttle forward when he looked at me and said no, and held my wrist. He told me to continue which I did (based on his experience I thought he must be right) and got to the threshold with the other aircraft not half way down the runway. So I levelled off at about 5 feet and flew the runway watching the other aircraft fill me windscreen. As soon as he rotated we were given a landing clearance so I performed the flattest landing known to man. Why? Because I felt pressurised into doing this by my passenger, I was watching the other aircraft fill my windscreen instead of the other end of the runway. ATC thanked me for the co-operation, and I got a telling off from my passenger for the landing. What have I learned? If I am P1, what I say goes! If I want to go-around, I’m going around!

This could have been a much worse situation with the bad landing, or a coming together with the other aircraft, or if I decided to go around at this late stage there could have been problems.

Thanks

[Timothy]

This is one of the concerns about mentoring. The guy in the RHS had no justification to hold your wrist (unless he was part of the crew as instructor.) I would give him a very sharp talking to before flying with him again.

OTOH, he might well have said "I think you'll be OK to continue" leaving you as P1 to take a view.

Incidentally, there is absolutely no reason why a properly executed hold-off in ground affect should result in a flat landing. You should be able to convert to a fully held off landing at any time and the result will be better from all points of view than a flat landing.

[Gertie]

when he ... held my wrist

That's a complete no-no.

(Even from an instructor, but most certainly from a passenger. (An instructor can use the "I have control" protocol of course, but that's different.))

It's illegal as well as dangerous.

A go-around is practically never wrong, and it's certainly not wrong if the only negative outcome is that you're going to waste a little time and a little money.

From what you've said that's somebody I'd never fly again.

[AndyR]

The number of times I have had the person sitting in the RHS start playing with the switches etc

You only had to say

[Adam]

I cant resist helping - mind you I ask first!

[Flyingfemme]

when he ... held my wrist

I'd have slapped him......

[Jon H]

Not quite the same situation as anon, as I was under instruction at the time and my instructor was entitled to suggest I keep going on an approach I'd lost confidence in. However, I found that keeping going when you've already mentally given up on the landing is not a good thing. I reckon if you are in control, you must have confidence in your ability to put the aircraft down safely. If you are not feeling confident about it you are probably not going to perform at your best.

As everyone else has said - the passenger holding your wrist was way out of line.

[wessex boy]

I was doing my check-ride when I joined the old Doncaster Flying club in '88, I was on approach and lovely Hornet Moth had just landed in front. The instructor told me to continue "don't worry, she'll move" I protested and suggested a go-around, but he told me to continue...she didn't move, I protested again and was told not to worry...

In the end I had no choice but to stick it down as early as possible and brake very hard. I broke the shimmy damper on the aircraft but we stopped in time.
We taxied in in silence (and rather shaky for 2 reasons) he signed off my check ride and I didn't fly with him again.

Earlier when I was learning at Norwich I had the same situation as Bloomer, I told the instructor there wasn't sufficient fuel, he told me there was. We went and flew an air-air photo sortie and I nagged him about the fuel until he reluctantly broke off and headed back.

We maintained 4000' all the way back and the propellor stopped about 4 miles out, he called a Pan and an airliner on final was asked to go around so that we could get in....

[Dave Phillips]

When I fly as an instructor with either a qualified pilot or a student I make the following points very clear:

1. Who is in command.
2. Either 'pilot' can initiate a go around at any point.

Interestingly, I saw a very similar situation a couple of weeks back where a 172 was chasing a motor glider down the runway. Not overly clever.

[Lowtimer]

You gave me a shudder reading this and I am glad it didn't happen to me as the last place you want an argument breaking out is on 300' short final very close to an occupied runway. I agree with everyone else about the "who's in charge" stuff. Whenever I fly with another pilot I make sure we brief the roles and responsibilities and making sure we both have the same understanding of what is OK and not OK. This includes when flying with an instructor, especially in the case where they are not flying with you in their capacity as an instructor, when things may be ambiguous unless specifically briefed to everyone's satisfaction.

On the specifics of the incident in question, clearly you made your initial decision in reasonable time at 300' but continuing to descend made things riskier by the foot. Going around immediately would have maintained good separation but if you imagine a situation where you left it later, and had subsequently been forced to go around from 50 feet, possibly just as the other guy was moving off, the proximity would have been greatly riskier. You would have have run the risk of losing sight of the other aeroplane by flying over the top of him, and him possibly not seeing you either until you are suddenly looming in his 12 o'clock high, all very close to the ground, and to each other. It's all very well your mate thinking "the other guy would have moved and we would have got in easily", as he may turn out to be correct, or he may not. No-one in your aeroplane is controlling what goes on in the other aeroplane, so you have to assume that it might not be convenient for you.

My rule is: if there is a reason to go around, then go around promptly rather than waiting to see how things develop.