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By Mad Girl
#562065
I've been taking advantage of the great weather this weekend and been throwing my [u:5749c11368][b]experienced[/b][/u:5749c11368] pilot friends into an aeroplane and making THEM take me up.

On Saturday... two of us were all set to go off to try out my "in the air" diversions whilst my mate flew.....

The Warrior was EXTREMELY reluctant to unstick... :shock:
I'd also seen that the ASI wasn't increasing too well and my eyes shot across everything that I thought could have caused a problem..... Carb heat was cold, fuel pump was on, mixture was full rich, throttle was full open, revs were as normal etc etc etc... We got airborne....JUST!!!! And...... on one of the legs we could only get 90kts out of 2400 revs... (usual setting for 100kts)

We obviously mentioned the lack of performance when we came back an hour later......

On Sunday... we decided to use an Arrow..... as we wanted to get a 3rd person in the aeroplane.

We'd had a word with the CFI who said that a number of people had made similar comments.......

What was different....
Instead of 24 we were on 06 for the first time in months (upslope)
We've been flying in cold temperatures and it was very warm for the time of year.
The ground was WET Grass
The ground was soft.

The aeroplane was set up for a normal PPL lesson - 2 up, and fuel on tabs - yet it was struggling very badly with 2 up..... All I can say is....I'm glad my mate was flying and not me... a student with limited experience......

We did a VERY THOROUGH weight and balance and performance review before we went off in the Arrow today, and did a soft field take off..........and a lovely time was had by all... :lol:

Be safe guys and gals..... :pray:
Last edited by Mad Girl on Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By aerobatic_dude
#562084
Just out of curiosity, what flap had your mate got selected when the warrior was a bit reluctant to lift ?
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By SteveC
#562088
We did a VERY THOROUGH weight and balance and performance review before we went off in the Arrow today, and did a soft field take off..........and a lovely time was had by all...


So are you admitting to not having done one for the flight in the warrior?
By Mad Girl
#562094
aerobatic_dude wrote:Just out of curiosity, what flap had your mate got selected when the warrior was a bit reluctant to lift ?


Two stages as per the POH......
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By Dominic
#562100
I had a similar lack of speed when departing Sherburn once. I realised the handbrake was still slightly on, and aborted. Would an abort have been a better option here?
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By KNT754G
#562162
I have always used the 1/3 2/3 theory for abort point.

On a limiting runway if you do not have 2/3 of safe flying speed by 1/3 runway distance then STOP and rethink tactics before trying again.

Beyond that point you are running an increasing risk of neither flying nor stopping.
By Mad Girl
#562167
There were LOTS of aeroplanes flying 2 up and fuel to tabs that day....... and there were NO accidents....

The point I'm trying to make (obviously badly :( )..... is that the circumstances combined to give a set of conditions which surprised a lot of people at the airfield........including some instructors who fly out of that airfield day in, day out and all year around..... A student friend was even accused of resting their feet on the toe brakes..... :shock:.

There are students and newly qualified PPL's who read these forums....not just the "extremely" experienced......

I was hoping that if someone read this.......... and maybe wasn't as current and experienced as my friend........they may read this and question...... even though they may always have flown from their airfield without a problem before.

Wouldn't want anyone to use some more of their bag of luck before filling the bag of experience if something may help. :(
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By gaxor
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#562186
Hi Madgirl

I think that the npoints you made are well worth reading, particularly this time of year when I would think quite a few pilots will be coming out of hibenation and not so familiar with the "feel" of their aeroplane.

Wet grass and sticky mud are very good at slowing down the take off run, particularly if fitted wth wheel spats.

Good points well made I think
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By Steve D
#562189
While I can understand the reluctance to accelerate and unstick due to runway conditions, I'm not sure the unseasonably warm temperature would explain the lack of cruise performance. Assuming it's a 160-horse Warrior, then surely you'd expect nearer 100Kt IAS from 2400 RPM? It may be warm for Feb, but it's cool for June, and you don't hear reports of Warriors clawing their way into the sky all summer. And after all, the Warrior was designed for US conditions, where temps are considerably higher than here, much of the time.

If you're not the only one reporting the problem, perhaps there is a problem?
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#562191
[quote='stevebulldogflyer']While I can understand the reluctance to accelerate and unstick due to runway conditions, I'm not sure the unseasonably warm temperature would explain the lack of cruise performance. Assuming it's a 160-horse Warrior, then surely you'd expect nearer 100Kt IAS from 2400 RPM? It may be warm for Feb, but it's cool for June, and you don't hear reports of Warriors clawing their way into the sky all summer. And after all, the Warrior was designed for US conditions, where temps are considerably higher than here, much of the time.

If you're not the only one reporting the problem, perhaps there is a problem?[/quote]

Points very well made.
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By Mike Cross
#562222
My bet is soft grass. I had exactly the same effect at Popham on Friday. It took a lot more runway to unstick. Not grass lengh, ground softness.

Initially accelleration seemed OK but then we got to around 60 mph and it didn't really want to go any faster with the wheels on the ground (I normally lift it at 65 mph when two-up).

Second take-off with a different passenger was the same. Landing roll was also interesting. Popham gets very slippery when wet and during the roll-out we appeared to be oscillating from side to side (weight rocking onto one main wheel then the other) again, similar behaviour on the second landing.
By Mad Girl
#562258
[quote='stevebulldogflyer']While I can understand the reluctance to accelerate and unstick due to runway conditions, I'm not sure the unseasonably warm temperature would explain the lack of cruise performance. Assuming it's a 160-horse Warrior, then surely you'd expect nearer 100Kt IAS from 2400 RPM? It may be warm for Feb, but it's cool for June, and you don't hear reports of Warriors clawing their way into the sky all summer. And after all, the Warrior was designed for US conditions, where temps are considerably higher than here, much of the time.

If you're not the only one reporting the problem, perhaps there is a problem?[/quote]

I understand your point re: cruise performance.....and if it had only been one of the aeroplanes........

Unfortunately I don't know the answer. :?

I know of at least one other with a similar cruise issue..... same student who had been accused of feet on brakes had to use 2500 revs to get 100kts through part of his flight...... Different Warrior.......

2000ft forecast winds were 180/15........ The first leg had a heading of 290(M)....and we got IAS 90kts on 2400 revs....

The other legs were better....... but 95 - 98kts max...... We just couldn't get the 100kts without using a higher rev setting....


It actually ended up being good NAV practice for me, as I was having to change ETA's accordingly.....
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By Morley
#562259
MG. You never confirmed mags were set to both.
By Guest
#562358
[quote='Morley']MG. You never confirmed mags were set to both.[/quote]

Sorry......... I gave you my instant (student!!) ........."what up" checklist......... i.e. what was going through my mind at the time.....

My friend talks aloud through his checklist as he goes along (probably so that I can follow what he's doing)... He did go through "mags on both" at the power checks - after previously checking them one at a time - which I DID watch 'cos I wanted to watch the revs fall - and each time he put it back to both.

We were airborne and saying what the **** before I had a chance to think of anything else......

When we came back - and he checked the mags before shut down - he definitely had to flick the key to check both of them, so I have to presume they were on both during the flight..
By Mad Girl
#562359
that was me.... i keep forgetting that they've moved this to the "It happened to me" forum... :oops: