An anonymous forum to allow you to share those moments in flying that caused you concern. You can post without registering a username, registered users can log out to post
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By Xiderpunk
#477526
I am of the opinion that you acted 100% correctly given the circumstances you were in and in relaying your experience was a brave and selfless act to try to send a warning to other PPL's.

In my view and I hope you don't mind me saying, the problem began before you departed, the weather reports were not favourable especially where higher ground and fewer diversion airfields are located. I am in no doubt that the lessons have been learnt, as I have learnt from my mistakes.

Thanks for posting the video and also for the honest account.
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By eltonioni
#477556
yawningdog wrote: I sincerley hope that people don't start trying to identify the pilot.

Cripes, no please don't identify him on here. That would be most unsporting! I've appreciated the opportunity to learn... as the OP intended.

But...
millermilla wrote:It was me I see no need to hide from it. We all make mistakes and learn from them. I was told the PPL was a licence to learn and I continue to do so today. That day I learnt some lessons that I will never forget and the utter feeling of helplessness is something that will live for me forever. For a split second I saw my life flash before my eyes and I can tell you it was not a nice feeling. Onboard were my wife and unborn child. Once we were on the ground I just sat in the aircraft and cried.

Very brave to stand up! You're right, it's not fair to judge you without being there and you seem perfectly aware of what happened and the issues around it so it's certainly not for me at a mere 80 hours to even dream of chastising you. Thanks for the opportunity that I mentioned above :)

From the 'Guest' post above, this would have been the cowardice moment that kept me on the ground:
I called Caernarfon and got a similar report as Valley with SCT
By Guest
#477591
Good on you Keith, exactly the right attitude. I think you'll just have to take the critism on the chin and put the whole thing down to experience.

You live and learn.

buzz
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By DamienB
#477654
millermilla wrote:With hindsight... (snip) I could have flown low along the sea exactly as the Hawk pilot showed me


The RAF practice low level tactical flying in many areas of Wales, down to damn near ground level and in all weathers - you wouldn't want to be doing something similar with nobody knowing about it.
By Tail-Dragger
#477678
millermilla wrote: If you want to sit behind your computer screen and judge me then fair enough but at least have the decency to show who you are before you make judgement or start calling me an idiot.


The nub of the matter I think! Can the mods release "Geust" identity so we can all kick him?
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By Gertie
#477862
Wow. There are lots of points where I hope I would have done something different, not least because to continue in those conditions would have broken several rules in the flying order book of the club from whom I hire. Which rules were, I'm sure, put there for good reason by people who know more about it than I do, so on the whole I usually choose to obey most of them.

Having said which ...

... the cloud bottoms weren't terribly level yesterday morning, and I was running along just below the cloud (maybe 2500', so I'd have been perfectly safe a few hundred feet lower), and looked down to fiddle with the paperwork and maps and stuff for a few seconds ... and looked up to find it all white. I could have done that better.
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By Rob P
#478354
Timothy wrote:We don't have a "dry day" driving licence (though drivers don't get training in wet nights, but that is another matter) and we should not have dry day flying licences.


Rather a shaky basis for comparison when have no driving medical that might preclude people from driving on wet nights through reason of colour perception problems and no cars that are allowed on the road unequipped for wet night use.

Maybe if you thought a bit longer you could come up with a more convincing analogy?

Rob P
Last edited by Rob P on Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By east_sider
#478399
Xiderpunk wrote:Thanks for posting the video and also for the honest account.


Seconded. Its quite scary watching (and reading the account) as a low experience stude but if I and others like me learn something from it then well worth it.
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By Lowtimer
#478625
Timothy wrote:I continue to move towards the view that a VFR only licence is a menace in the UK. It may be OK in France or Italy, but our changeable weather means that UK pilots should be able to deal with weather when they encounter it.


I see exactly what you are driving at and agree in part, but it depends what you are doing with your flying, and in what. If you're touring around a fully-equipped type then it's a good thing to be able to use all the stuff for the purposes intended. But those aeroplanes are decreasing in number. The majority of new aeroplanes being registered in the UK - mainly homebuilts, VLAs, and things which are technically microlights but outperform the average spamcan - are in any case certified / permitted for Day VMC only, as far as I can tell, which makes the licensing issue moot, n'est-ce pas?
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By Dave Phillips
#478766
A few observations.

I have flown around that area often - the TAFs are notoriously unreliable. Personally, I would have looked at the SCT-FEW @ 800ft bit with a large slice of cynacism.
I assume you had a good GPS and were aware of your position at all times. In IMC Safety Altitude is king. You say you considered climbing to VMC on top but were worried about your licence priveleges. Personally, stuff the regulations at this point - be as safe as you can.
I remember flying from Exeter to Newtownrads and ending-up over Wales at FL85 above a very thick layer of cloud. Having the same 'wotif the engine stops' moment I altered my route to be within gliding distance of the coast. My rationale was that I would prefer a ditching in the Irish Sea over an IMC smack into a hillside.
Well done and thank you for sharing your experience. I had a similar one in the Pennines where I tried to scud run down valleys. Climbing through granite impregnated cloud wasn't a nice experience. Indeed, it convinced Herself to get a PPL. :shock:
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By tiggermoth
#478911
Keith,

I admire you for owning up. I for one am not a perfect pilot, and like yourself I want to be a better one. You arrived back in one piece, and your video may well save the life of another pilot.

I was a passenger with a friend of mine when we went IMC very quickly. We were both very new pilots (in fact we still are). Neither of us had IMC training (apart from the appreciation bit as part of the PPL). We had checked the TAF and METARs before departure.

The feeling you described I can fully understand. I felt that "this is it", wished I could see my wife's smile again, I thought of the grief of my family. Utter dread sank. I suggested to my fellow pilot (who was PIC, and in the left hand seat) to do a 180' left very very gradually.

I realised we had only a few seconds until disorientation sank in (according to the stats on VFR pilots). My fellow pilot wanted to descend - but I told him we could not. Our way out was that we were out teaching each other the use of VORs and DMEs - so we knew exactly where we were on the chart, and high ground loomed below us.

We repeated to each other "don't panic", "watch airspeed", "watch altitude", "horizon ok", "rate one turn ok", "doing good". The needle on the VOR started tracking the reciprocal of our previous radial, the cloud thinned out, and our path was clear. It took us what we estimated about two or three minutes to get out it. We flew back to Barton, my friend did a textbook landing and we were just numb with shock.

We didn't call "Pan Pan" - I think we probably should have done.

I stopped and bought my wife some flowers on the way home, and talked to an instructor on IMC rating three days later.

Tiggermoth
PS I'm now booked on Simon's "Aviation Weather School".
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By Moli
#478969
Obviously I dont know who guest is but its a very harsh post and perhaps a little cowardly as its posted anonimously.
To call someone an idiot on the basis of what was posted I find a little disappointing.
For what its worth, when Keith did call on 121.5 I can distinctly recall how calm, professional & assured he sounded whilst coping with the predicament he found / placed himself in.

Moli
By Bagman
#479191
As a low hours NPPL student, I will never be able to undertake any kind of IMC course. However, through places like the forum, I can still benefit from the experience of others. God forbid, I should ever find myself in a similar position, I may now be able to recall what someone else has done to get out of trouble. It is all well and good for experienced pilots to lay blame but at the end of the day, there was a safe outcome through correct procedures. Surely, this should be heralded as a good example to students???
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By David Williams
#479259
Bagman wrote:As a low hours NPPL student, I will never be able to undertake any kind of IMC course.

Not at all true. You may be unable to get the actual rating attached to the NPPL, but there's absolutely nothing to stop you taking as much instrument training as you want. Even if you just did 5 hours of basic instrument training, so that you can keep the aircraft under control in cloud whilst calling for help - that would be very valuable.