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#1834179
T6
You"ve got the right approach,
From experience the most dangerous person I flew with was the one who said after almost getting himself into a potential; fatal situation, "I know what i"m doing".
You learn from making , hopefully small errors.
I expect that you watch "air accident investigations" or similar on tv--very useful
There are also some very good videos produced in the states on accidents involving light aircraft.
T6Harvard liked this
#1834338
ROG wrote:Could you possibly add something to the discussion

Rog, you appear to think I am being facetious? I can assure you I am not.

What I was trying to do was give students cause to question the notion pf pulling aircraft off the ground. Sure some require to be, however in my very limited experience at the bottom end of GA having to pull is an indication the aeroplane is not ready to fly.

EG my current aeroplane, open throttle, get rolling, positive stick forward to raise the tail, she flies all of her own accord when ready.

Nose wheel 150,152, PA38, PA28 similarly. Open throttle holding back pressure to keep the load off the nose wheel and they fly when ready, is my recollection. It has been a while since I flew one though.

Or maybe we just have different definitions for pulling? :wink:
JAFO liked this
#1834670
Misc--you seemed to have missed the point.--
As I said in my first note due to the interruption when doing my checks I had omitted to lower my usual 2 stages of flaps for a short field take off. When the aircraft did not leave the ground at its usual 57 knots I had to haul it up and hopefully increase airspeed before climbing away.
As I am able to write this note it is axiomatic that I managed to get over the hedge and survive.--a great plus for mankind.
After that experience I am more careful with any interruption and always double check flap settings when stripping.
Air accident investigations--on tele--have had several examples of interruptions on check lists resulting in serious accidents--one was where the crew did not set flaps--can"t remember which airline but a serious incident. Expect some reader with a better knowledge will know the airline.
#1834752
ROG wrote:Air accident investigations--on tele--have had several examples of interruptions on check lists resulting in serious accidents--one was where the crew did not set flaps--can"t remember which airline but a serious incident. Expect some reader with a better knowledge will know the airline.


There have been a lot of incidents related to the non setting of flaps over the years.

Were you talking about this one?



What about this?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAPA_Flight_3142

Then there's:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/madrid-crash-jet-flaps-not-set-take-932561.html
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-08-20-mn-3661-story.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_Flight_1141

Probably many more.
#1834834
Hi Paul -believe it was probably the Delta--it was a few months ago that I saw it. As far as I recall there was a delay and then they rushed to take off --not completing checks.
Sometimes the mistakes made are something a reasonable PPL wouldn"t make.
The son of a friend--flew with me for 5 years aged 16-21 before embarking on his commercial
licence--probably had well over 100 hours by then. He told me that some of the cadets with him had never even flown in a light aircraft before starting their commercials. He thought that his previous experience of flying light aircraft was a great. plus. He got his commercial and is now flying with Ryanair.
#1834842
Sometimes the mistakes made are something a reasonable PPL wouldn"t make.


I’m afraid, in general terms, I have to call that out as BS!

The licence or experience anyone has will NEVER protect them from the human condition. Every single one of us is hard wired to make mistakes. (Just take a moment to truly understand that!) Indeed some people, in all spheres of aviation, think it is ‘difficult’ to have an accident! It’s actually remarkably easy for every single one of us!

I too have watched Air Crash Investigation, and on the overwhelming number of occasions have thought, “there but for the grace.....”

There are a number of types in which failure to select take off flap could easily kill you. (737 is a prime example!) Being a professional pilot doesn’t make that omission any more ‘difficult’. Only rigid adherence to SOPs and checklists can protect us. That’s true for astronauts, students and everyone in between.

I expect your friend’s son will learn a lot flying with Ryanair!
JAFO, T6Harvard liked this
#1834935
The RAM one is interesting, partly because it did take off, just a bit later! Looking at the flap position next to the fuselage, it appears to have some flap selected, just not the amount that tied in with the performance calculations and speeds! Every recent Boeing I've flown has a "Take Off Config" alert if the flaps aren't in the take off range 10 degrees from memory. It's very, very difficult to ignore.
As A4 says, professional pilots are not immune from mistakes :(
#1834952
Every recent Boeing I've flown has a "Take Off Config" alert if the flaps aren't in the take off range 10 degrees from memory. It's very, very difficult to ignore.


Not quite as difficult as some would wish to imagine Malcolm.

Perhaps you recall a 737 taking off in the regions (late 90s) without take off flap set? The copilot didn’t recognise the noise he heard as the thrust levers were advanced. Other than he thought it sounded like the decompression warning. The highly experienced captain (not far from retirement) on the other hand did recognise the take-off config warning, and new exactly why they had received it!

His ‘decision’ was to continue the take off as he selected take off flap.

Not for you Malcolm, but for others. It takes a long time on a 737 for the flaps to run to the take-off position. Without flap the aircraft will not fly. On this occasion he, his crew and his passengers got lucky. As he reached the end of the runway the flaps had not reached the take-off position, but there was just enough for the aircraft to fly.

Perhaps that’s what happened on the RAM video?

One of those mistakes even a PPL wouldn’t make!

OTOH, If it reduces drag, it’s bound to reduce fuel burn. The accountants will probably soon be recommending this technique now it’s demonstrated to work! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Charles Hunt liked this
#1835001
A4 Pacific wrote:
Every recent Boeing I've flown has a "Take Off Config" alert if the flaps aren't in the take off range 10 degrees from memory. It's very, very difficult to ignore.


Not quite as difficult as some would wish to imagine Malcolm.

Perhaps you recall a 737 taking off in the regions (late 90s) without take off flap set? The copilot didn’t recognise the noise he heard as the thrust levers were advanced. Other than he thought it sounded like the decompression warning. The highly experienced captain (not far from retirement) on the other hand did recognise the take-off config warning, and new exactly why they had received it!

His ‘decision’ was to continue the take off as he selected take off flap.

Not for you Malcolm, but for others. It takes a long time on a 737 for the flaps to run to the take-off position. Without flap the aircraft will not fly. On this occasion he, his crew and his passengers got lucky. As he reached the end of the runway the flaps had not reached the take-off position, but there was just enough for the aircraft to fly.

Perhaps that’s what happened on the RAM video?

One of those mistakes even a PPL wouldn’t make!

OTOH, If it reduces drag, it’s bound to reduce fuel burn. The accountants will probably soon be recommending this technique now it’s demonstrated to work! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Interesting thoughts, a distinct possibility! We had a time on the 777 when the main wheel steering centering was a bit slow so would regularly get a config warning on lining up and being a bit enthusiastic with the thrust levers, particularly on the RR aircraft. That was sorted with a software and behaviour change, but it could lead to ignoring a warning.
#1835021
We had a time on the 777 when the main wheel steering centering was a bit slow so would regularly get a config warning on lining up and being a bit enthusiastic with the thrust levers, particularly on the RR aircraft.


It’s a few years since I last flew the 777 Malcolm, but didn’t that trigger a “CONFIG GEAR STEERING’ EICAS message or similar? So at least a glance would confirm precisely what it was? Not that you shouldn’t RTO of course.