Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By cockney steve
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1482502
Great post, Mr. Lefty :thumright: Our local cadets got booted-out many years ago....they were rehoused on an industrial area, some miles away....went past it a couple of weeks ago........a forlorn fortress behind a huge fence, with a huge banner plastered acruss one end, soliciting volunteers..

As a civic-minded fellow, who , in the past has helped in "cubs", i gave it a few seconds' thought.....but between this thread and "the dark side",- I have come to the conclusion the organisation has outlived it's usefulness to the Armed Forces, who appear bent on destroying it.

It's pretty obvious we are not expecting to engage in another major war on the scale of WW1 and WW2....Therefore, the "feeder" programme, to enthuse and educate youngsters with the values and ethos of the RAF, is largely redundant.

It really is a crying shame...perhaps a less parochial viewpoint would have allowed the Air-Scout movement to take over the facilities that have been peremptorily shut-down, leaving disillusioned kids and volunteers,who have the difficult job of persuading these youngsters that duplicity and dishonesty does not apply to all such organisations.

As a kid, I joined the Sea Cadets...I was proud to wear H. M's uniform and occasionally parade behind our band, through the streets.....but, the fact I never even saw a boat, let alone sailed or rowed one, led to my resignation. I kept my end of the bargain,..learned the "spit and polish" , the drills, the working parties to keep the hut up to scratch....but apart from a few knots, a very brief demo of dismantling/rebuilding a Lee-Enfield .303........

The ramifications of this Air-cadets debacle run a lot deeper than would at first appear.

A demonstration of appalling incompetence and a cavalier attitude to the up-coming generation.
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By Peter Gristwood
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1482517
Lefty wrote:Why, FFS, is it quite ok for me to donate hours and hours of flying experience to dozens of disabled & disadvantaged kids and Scouts each year - but somehow "thier airships" have decided that I can't offer the same to any ATC cadet?

(Former cadet sergeant 48F Sqdn ATC)


Absolutely. Over recent years I've flown a number of scouts and disabled children, but never an Air Cadet. In fact the scouts always seemed to get more flying than the Cadets. A real shame, as it was through the ATC I gained my love of flying

(Former cadet Flight Sergeant 1372 Sqdn ATC)
Last edited by Peter Gristwood on Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
By Balliol
#1482519
cockney steve wrote:
It's pretty obvious we are not expecting to engage in another major war on the scale of WW1 and WW2....Therefore, the "feeder" programme, to enthuse and educate youngsters with the values and ethos of the RAF, is largely redundant.

duplicity and dishonesty does not apply to all such organisations.

a cavalier attitude to the up-coming generation.


Those comments are utterly offensive to the highly impressive, hard working, dedicated and honourable cadets and adult staff I have the honour to work with and fly on a weekly basis. Yes, the gliding side of the organisation has had a terrible time, but to think the thousands of current cadets are some "redundant feeder programme" is terrible.
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By TLRippon
#1482539
As this thread has been running for a while, I had expected to see some changes being made to the civilian flying policy, however it hasn't and I have left the ATC as a CI as I no longer have a role. In a nutshell, you can fly a cadet if you are a CPL FI operating through an ATO with the aircraft being donated FOC so a highly qualified professional like Dave would actually have no problem getting 2FTS to ratify an application to fly even if he wasn't an officer. However we mere PPL's who did this before the change of policy cannot. These are not ATC rules these are 2FTS rules. It is an extremely generous professional FI and ATO to donate an aircraft and their time without any reward on a regular basis.
I was also told that if I continued to fly any cadets outside of the ATC who I met through the ATC what I would be in breach of the rules. It was just too much trouble to continue to work for a change.
I look forward to continuing to fly Scouts, Guides, and other non affiliated young people at various events throughout the year.
I found latterly that it seemed that the focus of the ATC was on the things the Scouts are good at and the Scouts seem to be more interested in aviation.
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By Starchild
#1482553
There are and I have to say "ashamed ones too"

I convinced my son to join the Air Cadets, explaining to him about all the flying I had done previously, showing him my ATC log book and how great the flying, gliding, camps, shooting, DoE, charity work was etc.

I managed to get him in to the ATC at RAF Odiham and he has now left after 2 years of never getting his feet off the ground once, such a very sad state of affairs.
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By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1482579
A school chum of mine joined the ATC back in the sixties and his first flight was promptly arranged for him.

He was terrified witless by the flight and promptly resigned forthwith.
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By Dave Phillips
#1482598
Starchild wrote:I managed to get him in to the ATC at RAF Odiham and he has now left after 2 years of never getting his feet off the ground once, such a very sad state of affairs.


There's little excuse for that. Flying continues and all of our cadets (53 on 'the books' ) have had the opportunity to fly at least twice this year. That said, I totally agree with the general sentiments about cadet gliding. Fortunately there are other ways and, whilst the Corps can't be seen to be publicly supporting (don't ask - it's frustrating) two of our cadets will probably solo this week in a glider courtesy of the local BGA scheme.
By Highland Park
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1482636
map5623 wrote:
Highland Park wrote:It's clear that because of the issues that befell 611VGS....

What happened to 611?

They were flying Vikings out of Watton, but the land was sold to a private landowner and they had to stop flying. I think that was about April 2013, possibly earlier, can't remember exactly but I was the WGLO at the time. They were moved to Honington but I understand that apart from a couple of months, they hardly flew for reasons that I'm not sure of. They've now been axed along with a number of others. It also coincided with the debacle surrounding the move of 5AEF from Wyton to Wittering...
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By bvq
#1482684
My son has been a member of a local squadron for almost 2 years now. In that time he has had several opportunities for flight in a Grob Tutor which only resulted in one actual flight due to weather. Luckily for him he flies regularly with me and he said that he prefers our flying to the flight that he had in the Tutor.

The squadron have some kind of deal with a local gliding club where cadets can go up with an instructor. I do not know the details of this arrangement and whether any money changes hands but it all seems above board and sanctioned by the Corps.

Whilst the lack of flying will be a disappointment for some I have got to say that from my own observations the local Wing is very well run, funded and staffed. The opportunities that my son has had so far have been fantastic and it has improved him as a person. The list of activities that he has participated in is impressive: drill, sports, shooting (air riffle, 0.22, L98, L85), kayaking, adventure training, expeditions, DofE, first aid, photography, organisation, planning, orienteering, ironing & polishing......

As has been identified by others, if you are a youngster interested in flying then your best bet is definitely the Scouts. At my flying club I often see Scouts taking to the air with fellow private owners.

Unfortunately the ATC seem to like over-regulating activities which often makes it too onerous to run them. I suspect that this is not deliberate, it is just the culture of the organisation.
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By leiafee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1482692
As a member of one of the closing VGS' I've been asked what I want to do next - moving to mainstream ACO was ine option, but sadly I think the answer will end up being "Go and join Scouts instead".

The approach to risk just seems more balanced there.

Touting on that subject - if anyone does want to put their toe in the eater of helpi kids get involved with aviation I'm going to try and organise a visit of Scouts and /or Cadets to Flyer live and need helpers.

Details here
viewtopic.php?p=1482683#p1482683

Or if you've got any Scout/Cadets to bring!
By chevvron
#1482708
TLRippon wrote:As this thread has been running for a while, I had expected to see some changes being made to the civilian flying policy, however it hasn't and I have left the ATC as a CI as I no longer have a role. In a nutshell, you can fly a cadet if you are a CPL FI operating through an ATO with the aircraft being donated FOC so a highly qualified professional like Dave would actually have no problem getting 2FTS to ratify an application to fly even if he wasn't an officer. However we mere PPL's who did this before the change of policy cannot. These are not ATC rules these are 2FTS rules. It is an extremely generous professional FI and ATO to donate an aircraft and their time without any reward on a regular basis.
I was also told that if I continued to fly any cadets outside of the ATC who I met through the ATC what I would be in breach of the rules. It was just too much trouble to continue to work for a change.
I look forward to continuing to fly Scouts, Guides, and other non affiliated young people at various events throughout the year.
I found latterly that it seemed that the focus of the ATC was on the things the Scouts are good at and the Scouts seem to be more interested in aviation.

It is/was possible to fly cadets in civilian aircraft provided they don't log it in their 3822.
Back in the early '90s, OC 2409 (RAF Halton) Squadron acquired a Thruster microlight and using a form in AP 1919 as a template, got their parents permission to fly in it. I joined the scheme as an AEF pilot when he acquired a couple of Cyclone AX3s via Bill Sherlock, the importer. OC Air Cadets himself flew in one of those solo and as a result, it was also approved for use provided the correct 'blood chit' was signed by the parents.
Myself and several other RAFVR(T) Officers in the wing (Herts & Bucks) flew many cadets using this system and eventually, when the club acquired Chevvrons, a microlight Flying Scholarship scheme fully endorsed and funded by HQAC was approved after an inspection by CFS.
By map5623
#1482711
Highland Park wrote:
map5623 wrote:
Highland Park wrote:It's clear that because of the issues that befell 611VGS....

What happened to 611?

They were flying Vikings out of Watton, but the land was sold to a private landowner and they had to stop flying. I think that was about April 2013, possibly earlier, can't remember exactly but I was the WGLO at the time. They were moved to Honington but I understand that apart from a couple of months, they hardly flew for reasons that I'm not sure of. They've now been axed along with a number of others. It also coincided with the debacle surrounding the move of 5AEF from Wyton to Wittering...


Sorry to hear that, I spent many happy hours in the back seat of a T31 at Swanton Morley. But that was in the days before H&S and the compensation culture we seemed now to be lumbered with.
By cockney steve
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1482714
@ Balliol......and others.........Perhaps I didn't make myself clear......as a lay-member of the public, and having read a great deal both here and on "the dark side" I have come to the conclusion that some units succeed DESPITE the attitude and apparent deliberate sabotage from above.
Slag me off all you like......then re-read the posts from dedicated volunteers who have been unceremoniously tossed -aside., having made commitments in good faith, that the ivory towers have ruthlessly destroyed.
Top management have a lot to answer for. are you all defending them?....who is/are the victims here? their Lordships? or the grass- roots enthusiasts? :(
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