[Bert Presley]

Just came back to me. It should be two minute legs around the triangle.

[Big Dex]

If I may assume the role of today’s Forum pedant, those 60* turns will make an awful triangle.... unless that’s the angle of bank.

[chevvron]

Just came back to me. It should be two minute legs around the triangle.

I thought it was 'turns to the right, receiver all right; turns to the left, nothing left'.

[flybymike]

nothing left'.

Including fuel eventually.

[chevvron]

nothing left'.

Including fuel eventually.

It was OK in the 'old' days of non- processed radar where the aircraft's blip left an 'afterglow' in the phosphor of the radar tube (how much depended on how 'soft' the phosphor was) but nowadays with processed radar displays, a controller wouldn't notice it.

[Bert Presley]

...but nowadays with processed radar displays, a controller wouldn't notice it.

Jeez. Now you tell me. Wondered why nobody turned up.

[nickwilcock]

For those of you who STILL haven't done so, please refer to the Skyway Code! You can access it on-line at http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAA ... SCREEN.pdf , then go to .pdf page 132/163.

If any instructors aren't aware of this, please point it out to them!

[Talkdownman]

Just came back to me. It should be two minute legs around the triangle.

Unless more than 300KIAS in which case one minute.

I thought it was 'turns to the right, receiver all right; turns to the left, nothing left'.

Rx only = Right
Nothing left = Left

You'll be talking about the Speechless NCNG plus HEFOE Code plus Short-Pattern Emergency One-in-One SRA next...

[Bert Presley]

You'll be talking about the Speechless NCNG plus HEFOE Code plus Short-Pattern Emergency One-in-One SRA next...

I remember the speechless code (one click 'yes' etc.), but not the rest. If a Hollywood time-warp vortex happens to overcome us, it might be useful to know

Could you explain?

[Dusty_B]

Triangles are really for requesting assistance after a loss of communication and navigation capability when IFR/VFR on top (the assumption being that if you have a nav capacity while on an IFR flight plan you could continue as filed). If your receiver works, you should get vectors. If all is lost, a shepherd aircraft will be sent to intercept and guide you down.

[Talkdownman]

You'll be talking about the Speechless NCNG plus HEFOE Code plus Short-Pattern Emergency One-in-One SRA next...

I remember the speechless code (one click 'yes' etc.), but not the rest. If a Hollywood time-warp vortex happens to overcome us, it might be useful to know

Could you explain?

Speechless:

"carrier wave only, Speechless aircraft I will address you as 'Speechless One' "
1 click for Yes
2 for No
3 for Say Again
4 for Request Homing
Morse X for 'I have a further emergency'

Then go through the 'closed questioning' Yes/No Interlude (...if anyone remembers Michael Miles...):
H- Can you maintain Height?
E- Do you have an Engine problem?
F - Do you have a Fuel problem?
O - Do you have an Oxygen problem?
E - Do you have an Electrical problem?
You have to be somewhat inventive if none of that elicits the problem. Type is useful - "Are you Fast Jet/Twin piston/Military eight-jet" etc

Bung in a 'No-Compass, No-Gyro' ("Speechless One, All turns will be Rate 1 timed by me starting and stopping on the command 'Now'...(get the stopwatch out) Left turn for Identification, turn left now......................(3 degrees/sec, min 30 deg for ident)..."Stop Turn Now" etc (oh dammit, too much/not enough...)

If the type is a SE fast jet with a flame-out it could be an exciting steep approach, 1000ft/mile, known as a 'One-in-one', which makes an SRA or a PAR rather interesting especially when it's well above GP cover on the PAR.

The 'short-pattern' SRA is a curved radar approach (like a PFL) where it would be inappropriate to fly a straight-in. Advisory altitudes are given at the curved range. (It might mean the curved Final Approach Track is outside the normal Surveillance Minimum Altitudes but in an emergency all the stoppers are pulled out where possible)

All exciting stuff. Then stick a competence examiner behind for good measure, and you might wish you'd chosen a different vocation...

You don't really want someone calling up for Basic in the middle of that lot...

I could ramble on, but hopefully that will give you an idea...

[Longfinal]

And all that using only CADF!

[chevvron]

You'll be talking about the Speechless NCNG plus HEFOE Code plus Short-Pattern Emergency One-in-One SRA next...

I remember the speechless code (one click 'yes' etc.), but not the rest. If a Hollywood time-warp vortex happens to overcome us, it might be useful to know

Could you explain?

Speechless:

"carrier wave only, Speechless aircraft I will address you as 'Speechless One' "
1 click for Yes
2 for No
3 for Say Again
4 for Request Homing
Morse X for 'I have a further emergency' (_.._)

Then go through the 'closed questioning' Yes/No Interlude (...if anyone remembers Michael Miles...):
H- Can you maintain Height?
E- Do you have an Engine problem?
F - Do you have a Fuel problem?
O - Do you have an Oxygen problem?
E - Do you have an Electrical problem?
You have to be somewhat inventive if none of that elicits the problem. Type is useful - "Are you Fast Jet/Twin piston/Military eight-jet" etc

Bung in a 'No-Compass, No-Gyro' ("Speechless One, All turns will be Rate 1 timed by me starting and stopping on the command 'Now'...(get the stopwatch out) Left turn for Identification, turn left now......................(3 degrees/sec, min 30 deg for ident)..."Stop Turn Now" etc (oh dammit, too much/not enough...)

If the type is a SE fast jet with a flame-out it could be an exciting steep approach, 1000ft/mile, known as a 'One-in-one', which makes an SRA or a PAR rather interesting especially when it's well above GP cover on the PAR.

The 'short-pattern' SRA is a curved radar approach (like a PFL) where it would be inappropriate to fly a straight-in. Advisory altitudes are given at the curved range. (It might mean the curved Final Approach Track is outside the normal Surveillance Minimum Altitudes but in an emergency all the stoppers are pulled out where possible)

All exciting stuff. Then stick a competence examiner behind for good measure, and you might wish you'd chosen a different vocation...

You don't really want someone calling up for Basic in the middle of that lot...

I could ramble on, but hopefully that will give you an idea...

B'stard I wanted to do that one . I'm not playing with you any more
TDM is the only FI who ever practiced this (apart from military FIs) especially when I was on LARS West. He usually did it to demonstrate to his students (I hope).
I used speechless once when FISOing at Fairoaks too; helicopter inbound through the CTR; Heathrow told me no 2-way; then I heard a carrier wave with no modulation etc.
TDM and I know these procedures because we both worked at Farnborough when we also did Odiham Radar and for Farnborough and Odiham pilots doing them it was a 'normal' part of continuation training.

[Talkdownman]

B'stard I wanted to do that one :furious

You are clearly slowing down...

TDM is the only FI who ever practiced this (apart from military FIs) especially when I was on LARS West. He usually did it to demonstrate to his students (I hope)

Yeah, but after a few of those you just guessed "If that's TDM doing a Speechless Blackbushe is in your 11 o'clock range 8 miles, and I'll tell Blackbushe on the landline...". I have to say I only did it with you (a) because you had the capability to see it through and, (b) I enjoyed annoying you...

We do live training for our emergency training (ABES) rather than in a simulator (It probably doesn't cost any more than running an approved sim). We fly our own radar target and as most of the team are also PPLs we take it in turns to annoy each other with S/L, NCNG and SEP with rough-running etc. It's fantastic fun. My favourite is the Tx failure (which I think is more likely than just mic failure). Reports are made using turns e.g. " when reaching 2500ft turn left heading xxx" etc. It's a lot easier than it sounds. There's not much call for S/L or NCNG these days, but having said that about 10 years ago a LOT 737 had serious nav issues, report here, after departing from Heathrow due to East/West finger trouble. Watching the radar video and R/T recording down at Swanwick was absolutely cringeworthy. The unfolding drama to get the 737 back onto a visual final dragged on for about half an hour and NONE of the area controllers seemed to have the capability to offer NCNG guidance. We were yelling at the screen for a good ten minutes "put him on discrete freq for a 'No-Compass No-Gyro' approach". I came away from the presentation with a huge feeling of frustration and disappointment, it would have been oh-so-simple. It would have been so easy to get the crew to fly wings level on the Standby AI, and take it "rate 1, start/stop" downwind for a landing. Fortunately weather was VMC and eventually the pilots established visual contact with the airport and muddled onto final, albeit unstable, towards an easterly runway. The emergency was very poorly managed from an ATC point of view. The ATCOs on duty had either not been trained for NCNG, or even heard of it! I dread to think how that event would have panned out with a low overcast.

There's a whole raft of techniques out there for dealing with 'lost' aircraft etc. The important thing is to off-load the routine workload onto another controller, and get a coordinator to help. There's no room for heroics when it comes to getting aircraft occupants safely back on the ground. My favourite is N559DW whose driver pegged out on the climb.

[riverrock]

We get ATC at Prestwick Airport to practice their NCNG approaches fairly often
However we've not tried organising a speechless NCNG.
Is NCNG a standard part of an approach controller's repertoire, and its just Area controllers who don't know it?