FLYER Forums

You may recall I was asked a few weeks ago about the pros and cons of these strange flingwings without a visible means of support. (I jest)
Anyway, said relative has now come up with the idea that a few mates and himself build a 'proper job' as in Jodel140 or such. (I pointed them at that one actually I must admit, the question asked of me this time round was "What can we build with more than 2 seats?)
I have tried, to the best of my ability , to talk them out of anything on the spur of the moment, and have pointed out there are more rules in the UK to building an aircraft than anywhere else in the world, civilised or otherwise.
I also said that, if my memory serves me correctly, the Cancel Amateur Aviation have not yet been convinced by the LAA (PFA in my time) that anything designed, built and flown anywhere else in the world can operator safely in UK airspace if it has more than 2 seats. I seem to recall that there was a machine, the KR2 that, although designed and flown quite happily the other side of the pond with 2 SOB, is only permitted to carry one over here. (Amusing when you consider the average BMI here and elsewhere.....)

I only wish I were 37 instead of 73, I might even join them in their quest for wings.....At my age I doubt I got time for the bloody glue to dry LOL

Anyway back to the original reason for the post. What is the position at the moment with regards to 3/4 seat home builds?

RV10

There's a 4 place Jabiru I think

Rob P

By the time you have built a Jodel 140, lovely aircraft though that it may be, starting a build at 73 I hate to say it but by the time it is built you will probably be too old to fly it!
I would strongly suggest you stick with something that is a quick build kit i.e........ Sting,Sirius,Bristell,Jabiru,Pioneer...or,if you think you have the time a Vans RV.

There are a number of LAA approved 4 seat aircraft, none from the UK though. Off the top of my head;

JABIRU J400
JABIRU J430
Vans RV10
Jodel DR1050
Jodel D140
Pioneer p400

Rod1

Shoestring Flyer and others.
I did infer that I figured I was a little long in the tooth, and sadly would not be joining the ranks of aircraft manufacturer, mind you, it has been three years last weekend actually since I last had opportunity to defy gravity (Cheers PeteS) so I would encourage actively. At least I may get my own bum back into the air that way......

I have looked at the aircraft mentioned, but they all seem to be kit built, and as I said we are talking abut the aspirations of a 20 year old here, so the idea of shelling out thousands at a time for a kit is most probably a non starter.
I think that the idea of a home brew was attractive in that you bought the plans, then materials as you could afford at the time, the young grandson certainly would not be capable of shelling out 10's of K£ in one sitting.

I thank all for their responses. I was, I admit, surprised to find the CAA/LAA had come round to accepting more than 2 seats for a home build.
Personally, I would not be surprised in six months time to be asked to look into the concept of a home built kit car or the like for the same grandchild.
At least he has ideas, and is not sat there dislocating thumbs on a PlayStation controller

Sellbydate_Expired wrote:...
I have looked at the aircraft mentioned, but they all seem to be kit built...

The Jodels are plans built - there are no kits for them.

Sellbydate_Expired wrote:...
I was, I admit, surprised to find the CAA/LAA had come round to accepting more than 2 seats for a home build....

The LAA have allowed 4 seat aircraft for a few years now - I suspect that the limiting factor was the CAA - the requirements are tighter though: I think the main one is that you have to use a certified engine.

Brooklands

I hate to say it but by the time it is built you will probably be too old to fly it!

What is the age limit?

There is of course no age limit, you can build a LAA permit at whatever age you like. You can only fly it though as long as you can keep passing some sort of medical as per any aircraft.
The point I was making though was that a Jodel 140 build would be a build from plans only (there are no kits produced)and usually this type of build generally tends to role into a decade or more and that he may be better off considering a quick build kit aircraft which could be completed in 12months or so depending on the plane chosen.

I have built a modern kit aircraft and it took me 1800h over 3y3m. To build one of the 4 seat kits in 1 year I would have to work about 4 days a week on it…

My estimate for building a plan built Jodel 150 (similar amount of work to a DR1050) was 8000 hours, which was way more than I could face for a second project. You would need a big workshop to cope with the wing. Another option is to buy a project and rebuild as required. This is cheaper than the kit option. The DR1050 is reasonably common and they do come up from time to time.

Rod1

'To build one of the 4 seat kits in 1 year I would have to work about 4 days a week on it…'

If the OP is 73 I would imagine that he is a retired gentleman so 4days a week I wouldn't have thought would be a problem

Does the Jodel design have existing IP protection (patents etc)? It's quite an old design and IIRC, patents only last 20 years (??)

It seems such a popular aircraft, with many people aspiring to want one, but put off by having no option other than to build from plans.

I would have thought there was a pretty good opportunity for a kit manufacturer to take the design and manufacture it so as to make it more accessible. The fact that this hasn't happened leads me to think there is a good reason. Any ideas?

Anyone aspiring to a Jodel (of any kind) needs to do a reality check and answer a fundamental question: do I want to build ("I love working with wood and being creative"), or do I really want to fly?
If it is the latter, don't think of building. Not for one moment. The horrid truth is that if you add up the cost of all the materials (wood, glue, prop, engine, paint, fabric, instruments, metal hardware, plans, LAA charges etc) these costs will match or (more probably) exceed the cost of buying a good clean 'pre-loved' Jodel in exellent nick. The Jodel has no fatigue life (wood doesn't). Looked after and not dinged, it will go for ever. From time to time it may need new fabric, paint, engine, perhaps a new panel if the old one is showing its age, but it will keep going so long as you do not bend it.
Build a Jodel? One chap I know has built a beautiful 1050. I know it has taken him nigh on 15 years (he has done a beautiful job). But a cheap/efficient way to get an aeroplane? No way. He must have spent 5,000 hours + in the workshop. If he had taken a part-time job pulling pints in the pub at 10 quid an hour he could
easily have bought two three-seat Jodels.
20 years ago I was on the cusp of building a D18 and did the reality check. So I bought a rough 1051M1 for 13 K and gradually improved it as the years went by. Good decision.
If you want a Jodel, be patient and be prepared to buy a rough one and spend a bit of dosh on it. You won't regret it. But keep it in a hangar. Essential. Outdoor storage is a killer. The DR220 series is great but not on an LAA Permit. Same with the DR250 (superb but thirstier) and the D140 (heavy five-seat lifter) Look for anything up to a 1050/51. I could go on, but you would all get very bored....
Thank God for Ernie Horsefall. Echo Hotel is found on the fuselage reg of 65 + G-registered Jodels.

“a pretty good opportunity for a kit manufacturer”

The Jodel has been available in kit form in France. The D18/19 was available as was a lightened “micro” version but the kits were never LAA approved. I had a good look at one some years ago at the RSA rally and the build quality was very good.

The D140 is now LAA approved but only 4 seats, not 5.

I fly a friend’s DR1050a and recently did the test flying on a D117a which was also very good.

Rod1

Sellbydate_Expired wrote:the young grandson certainly would not be capable of shelling out 10's of K£ in one sitting.

Good luck with the engine then!

I'm currently spending £23k just for an overhaul of mine.