Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By Ragwing
#1144274
Surprised there's not been much discussion on the latest Ice Pilots TV series....seems to be big changes going on at Buffalo,

I wonder if anybody can answer this for me...in the last episode they where getting ready to to fly the Electra out to start a new military contract...unfortunately the APU would not start so they could not start the big Allison's,

Its seems that APU fitted to the Buffalo's Electra's are made and designed by there flight engineer (Luby) a small jet engine/gas turbine,

The APU they use looks to be a very compact unit...and I just wondering how it work or what it does....I can only think it drives a generator????

I'm sure somebody can tell me,

Does seem sad that the big radial piston engine era maybe slowly coming to an end over there in the far north .
By Lefty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1144290
The apu is a tiny jet engine that outputs high pressure air which is used to start the engines. Basically they couldn't put enough battery power onboard the aircract to start the engines electrically. The V Bombers could start electrically - but it was only used in emergencies as it didn't do the batteries any good at all.

The air start system was used exstenively in the 1950's era aircraft. The Vulcan and Victor used this method - but using an external starter know as a "Palouste". Essentially a Palouste Jet engine and fuel tank mounted on a two wheel trailer. The Palouste engine also powered some of the early french made turbine helicopters.
By Ragwing
#1144292
I see...so is it the APU's jet exhaust that's plumbed to the main engines via a hose that is this HP air feed.
User avatar
By dawdler
#1144296
Lefty wrote:The air start system was used exstenively in the 1950's era aircraft. The Vulcan and Victor used this method - but using an external starter know as a "Palouste". Essentially a Palouste Jet engine and fuel tank mounted on a two wheel trailer. The Palouste engine also powered some of the early french made turbine helicopters.


I suppose in their time one of these would have been available at most airports served by Electras. Now I guess because of their rarity, companies like Buffalo have to carry their own. I think I am right in saying Air Atlantique had at one time the biggest fleet of Electras operating in the world. The number that comes to mind is nine, I wonder if they had the same problem?
By Lefty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1144298
Ragwing wrote:I see...so is it the APU's jet exhaust that's plumbed to the main engines via a hose that is this HP air feed.

Correct. I used to maintain the Palouste starters - and they are tricky little beasts. The fuel control system has a number of small fuel valves that are electrically controlled. Unfortunately these little solenoid valves get sticky - especially in very cold weather.

I was based at RAF Goose Bay in Labrador for three years - in conditions identical to those you see on Ice Pilots. Today it is minus 24C in Goose. I had a fabulous time there - and even tried to leave the RAF and stay there. (Probably why I love watching Ice Pilot's - it really brings back great memories).
By Ragwing
#1144312
Must have been interesting times for you...and tough I would have thought....-24 I cant begin to imagine what it must be like to work in temps like that...I remember in one episode of Ice Pilots where the temp was hovering around -39...at -40 I think they had to cease all opps IIRC,

We are totally spoilt at the moment with aviation on TV....I don't ever remember such a diverse range of stuff on the box.

What types did the RAF operate over there????
User avatar
By weirdfish
#1144319
Ragwing wrote:Surprised there's not been much discussion on the latest Ice Pilots TV series....seems to be big changes going on at Buffalo,

.


We've all been too busy dissecting the continuity disaster that is Dangerous Flights :D


Duane doesn't make a reappearance in series 4 so I'm expecting a confrontation and walk out/kick out towards the end of this series. :)
User avatar
By joe-fbs
#1144325
Air Atlantique still has two functioning Electras (G-LOFC and G-LOFE) which we see at their Coventry base occasionally and magnificent they are. Both had major work done last year so presumably will be operating for a while yet.

There are also two hulks at Coventry G-LOFB and G-FIJV.

More here:

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthre ... ght=G-LOFC

G-INFO shows a couple of other live registrations for Electras as well.
By Lefty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1144327
It was very interesting. We had rules about different working practices depending on the still air and wind chill temperatures.
IIRC, below minus 20, we had to have 1 person for every two workers - watching them to ensure they had no exposed flesh and no signs of frostbite. At minus 30, it was one to one and at - 40 (if we really had to work) it became two safety per one worker. (each safety guy watching bothe the other safety guy and the worker.

The biggest risk was from touching frozen metal with your bare hand. I unfortunately saw two guys rip all the skin off the hand - rightdown to the bone becasue they caught hold of a generator towbar with their bare hand. It was inside the hangar - so they forgot and took their gloves off. Their mistake was pulling their hand away. A third guy did the same, but we managed to get him to keep his hand on the towbar whilst we got a blow torch and heated up the towbar - and then gently removed his hand. He needed treatment, but he was ok. The other two were casevac'e back to the UK for treatment - and out of the RAF.

The generators had a 2.5 inch thick rubber cable. However this got so cold that it would shatter into 1 million pieces if dropped onto the ground. Even lead acid battery acid would freeze within an hour or so.

As for aircraft. Our purpose was threefold :
1)to provide a training base to allow RAF aircrew (Vulcan, Victor, Canberra Tornado to practice low level flying over tundra type terrain that is identical to the eastern approaches to the former USSR. They used to practice their ultra low level attack profiles - for example the Vulcan and Tornado used to fly at below 200ft with the terrain following radar coupled to the autopilot and flying the aircraft.
2) to provide a staging post for RAF aircraft heading down to the US & beyond
3) to provide artic survivial training for RAF aircrew (I used to do this as a secondary duty)

Typical aircraft that visited were:
Vulcan - all the time - typically 5 at any one time & usually stayed for a 5 day training excercise
Victor every couple of weeks - 1 or two at any one time & usually stayed for a 5 day training excercise
Tornado towards end of my tour, 3-4 times per month 2-4 a/c at a time & usually stayed for a 5 day training excercise
Hercules 3-4 per month - usually just overnight
VC10 3-4 per month - usually just overnight
Comet 2 per month usually just overnight
Canberra only occassionally when taking part in bombing competitions in the US.

I was luck to get my PPL during my first six months there - and whilst there to fly a wide variety of aircraft including wheeled, skis, floats, covertible floats and seaplanes. I also got 5 rides in the back of a Vulcan. :D :D :D :thumright: :thumright: :thumright:
By Lefty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1144328
Duplicate post deleted
Last edited by Lefty on Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Flintstone
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1144384
Ragwing wrote:...they could not start the big Allison's (sic)



I once knew a Big Alison. Never any problem getting anything of hers started.
Lockhaven liked this
User avatar
By kanga
#1144618
Lefty wrote:..

Typical aircraft that visited were:
Vulcan - all the time - typically 5 at any one time & usually stayed for a 5 day training excercise
Victor every couple of weeks - 1 or two at any one time & usually stayed for a 5 day training excercise
Tornado towards end of my tour, 3-4 times per month 2-4 a/c at a time & usually stayed for a 5 day training excercise
Hercules 3-4 per month - usually just overnight
VC10 3-4 per month - usually just overnight
Comet 2 per month usually just overnight
Canberra only occassionally when taking part in bombing competitions in the US.
..


.. and I certainly recall ('60s) the occasional Argosy. ISTR they had to stage through Keflavik as well. I'm guessing that they were taking outsize cargo somehere ..

Another common source of transport aircraft in transit were US military charters to/from Europe, as ( was told) so many USAF aircraft were busy with Vietnam-related flying. Many of these charters were in old and medium-range types; which is why they passed through Goose, I guess. They certainly included C46s (Capitol Airways, IIRC), which I also in a later year saw passing through Prestwick. But all US military (own and chartered) types parked up at their own, quite separate and distant, ramp. There was quite a sizeable USAF presence; but our hospital got a lot more help (technical, labour and donations) from the RAF :thumright:

[I was working at a mission hospital (Beaver air ambulance, floats or skis) in a tiny settlement just down the (only! dirt*, ~20 mile) road from Goose, and (also) flying at the GBFC, whose aircraft were kept in the RAF hangar. It was curious preflighting a C140 indoors under the wing of a Vulcan .. there seemed to be few security hangups in those days .. :) ]

*there is now a road, much of it now paved I gather, all the way from 'main' Canada at Sept Iles, via Labrador City and Churchill Falls to GB and beyond to our settlement

[the last 2 series of Ice pilots have not been on Freeview (Quest) .. :( .. I thoroughly enjoyed the earlier ones. I have worked in the high Arctic, too]
User avatar
By kanga
#1552300
[thread resurrection after a mere 4 years .. :) ]

Ice Pilots reappeared in last week's RT (and this week's, again): Quest (Freeview 37), Fridays, 2200. I watched last night's, and it seemed both new (to me) and definitely chronologically later than the last episode which I remember, although not clear how much later. Anyway, I shall continue to watch.
By Ragwing
#1552302
Wow 4 years...thanks for the heads up...just found it on Quest.