[AndyR]

Steve, as you have also misunderstood this:

Spent well over an hour at the hold just on those three visits

I did mean a total of an hour over three visits, that is three departures. I believe the longest was 25 minutes, so the remaining 35 minutes split over two departures.

To be fair (I do try to be fair and support GA as much as the next man) they were all IFR flights, so sometimes a little more difficult to coordinate for immediate take offs and such like, or certainly it seems that way.

[Bristol Aviation]

Hello Andy,

Please accept my apologies, I did misread your message.

I cannot speak for visiting aircraft as I dont have access to that data, but for based aircraft holding of that time does not happen, if a hold occurs (rarely) its for 1 orbit over a VRP and will last less than 5 mins, and could be seen to be good practice for the student or if the instructor is on the ball, slow flight could be practiced by the student depending upon their position in the syllabus.

ATC usually work very hard at Bristol to position aircraft to slot in with inbound traffic (keeping correct separation) and 90% of the time it works exceptionally well.

If all the student wants to do is fly in uncontrolled airspace or an ATZ with little or no radar service in a GA only environment then maybe Bristol isnt for that individual, but for all the students we see here, the excitement they have training in such a wonderful varied environment really speaks for itself, plenty of smiling faces!!!

As always there is no right or wrong way, its up to the individual but I dont want people to be put off visiting us as they may just thinks its a pretty cool place to fly!

Best regards

Steve

Best

[Delauney]

1) Only one runway, lessons can be cancelled due to cross winds.

Our Paths may of crossed Airtourer Flyer, during my PPL course with BFC I never had a lesson cancelled just down to the cross wind limits being exceeded, granted several lessons were binned down to poor weather - just like any other airfield?

It was not until I started flying with other pilots who had been taught at Gloucester that I felt that my time at Bristol with the one runway had inadvertently paid dividends.
The Gloucester trained pilots were/are very wary of cross winds because they were used to having a pretty much into wind runway to use, Bristol trained PPLs (the ones I flew with anyway) paid attention to the wind, but were confident enough to operate up to the aircraft X-wind limits.

Shirley this can't be a bad thing?

[Waveflyer]

If your friend does not live near a convenient flying school I would suggest he plans ahead:
1. Go and see an AME. If he can pass the medical, go to item 2.
2. Buy the theory books, and start learning.
3. Take advice about suitable flying schools in the US.
4. Go to the US for a month without any family. (a) do the writtens on day one. (b) go and fly 24/7.
Even if there is a convenient flying school available in the UK, the time and money wasted with travelling to/from, the weather, aircraft that go tech, instructors that suddenly disappear to an airline, and the weather, will rapidly discourage all but the most determined.

Crikey, who's upset GC. Some of those comments, highlighted, may apply to some of the schools but from what I've seen at Cotswold Aero Club at Gloustershire, none of them apply. Plenty of runways to keep the flying going in strong winds and wel maintained aircraft. I'm not sure what sort of pilot would be produced in Florida in a couple of weeks but I'm pretty sure he/she wouldn't compare with one who has trained through a couple of seasons in the UK.

[Private Jet]

I priced up my revalidation and even with the recent piss-poor summer and the fact that accomodation is usually dearer, it wasn't going to be cheaper to do it in the US. You can arrange residential, full time courses for about the same price here if you shop around, and the weather disruption in Florida can be bad if you don't pick the right time of year.

My younger cousin had a real horror story of training in the US and finished his PPL here in the end. However I don't think his experiences are the norm, I just don't think that it's right to say that it's always better to go to the US to train.

[golfcharlie]

My views have been shaped by a number of factors, including an IMC rating at Lulsgate some years back. Also: the horrendous drop-out rate for student pilots learning to fly in the UK; the notoriously fickle VFR weather at airfields like Lulsgate on top of a hill; the lousy access and ever-present officialdom which I find irksome in the extreme.
Training in a controlled airport environment is suitable for those seeking an airline career. However, most of the GA flying in the UK takes place at much smaller licensed and unlicensed airfields, and farm strips. No doubt because the likes of Lulsgate have deliberately priced out small GA aircraft (Waveflyer could tell the story). A Lulsgate-trained pilot will no doubt be able to fly an accurate hold just above the stall speed, but will he be able to make a safe and confident approach into a 600-yard strip through a gap between trees 50 yards apart? Big airports do not provide the right training or inculcate the right degree of independent judgement that is needed for the UK GA pilot intending to go places. I learned in the UK.
I don't recommend training in the US because it may or may not be cheaper. Rather, it enables the student to fast-forward and eliminate serious UK obstacles, that for many result in a time-consuming and frustrating grind, terminating in a drop-out.
In my view, the task complexities should be added one at a time. A US-trained pilot uses the same laws of physics as the rest of us. British weather and airspace is a complication that is more easiy mastered once he has dealt with the earlier PPL basics of hand-eye-foot coordination

[SteveN]

It was not until I started flying with other pilots who had been taught at Gloucester that I felt that my time at Bristol with the one runway had inadvertently paid dividends.
The Gloucester trained pilots were/are very wary of cross winds because they were used to having a pretty much into wind runway to use, Bristol trained PPLs (the ones I flew with anyway) paid attention to the wind, but were confident enough to operate up to the aircraft X-wind limits.

Shirley this can't be a bad thing?

My experience training at Filton, a single massive runway was a lot more cancellations once I was flying solo. I had 10 lessons cancelled waiting to do my QXC. That was bl**dy annoying and damaged my confidence so completing the QXC became a big issue rather than part of a natural progression. That may have been the inexperience of what were hour building instructors but it was also a school imposed solo student crosswind limit. It built crosswind operations into something daunting rather than just another technique and did me no favours at all.

Throughout my training I had a 40% cancellation rate at Filton booking 3 lessons a week. I simply don't see that level of wasted time and disappointment happening to students at our club at Glos (CAC). It may take longer to get to the airport (I live in Bristol too) but students are far more likely to fly.

Admittedly their orbiting skills won't be honed to quite the same levels

[Densflyer]

I just like to say that it is possible to do a self arranged semi-residential course in the UK. I've just gained my NPPL SLMG; in 8 weeks, flying 3 days a week (total 25 flying days) and completed in 52 hours at Hinton in the Hedges. Within those 25 flying days I only lost 3 days due to unsuitable weather although being 'on site' 3 days a week meant that it was possible to grab an hour here and there when the weather was marginal. I only had to wait for a week to get the right conditions to do the QCC. Admitedly because I learned at a small quiet airfield I haven't had the interaction with traffic (although there was parachuting in progress on 2 of the days each week) and my radio experience is non-existent (still have the RT licence to get) but I can get an aircraft onto an 800 metre grass strip. Off now to do differences training with an LAA coach to get the SSEP rating on my group-owned Permit taildragger. Not bad for an aging female!!

[t8caa]

Had the opportunity to visit the Tower at Bristol last week and should mention how well we were looked after by a very experienced and friendly team. We did discuss ( naturally) GA and turns out several have had experience in the past and we were being shown round by the part owner of a Cub. I mention this as there is certainly no anti GA stance in there, quite the opposite , in contrast I think to the airfield management . We witnessed some good examples of traffic being slotted in and I'm sure they not have any needless delays for the little uns. That said it is the 9th busiest airport in the UK and no doubt they are maxxed out at times which I'm sure could become part of the timetable for not booking a flying slot.

BTW learned at Staverton Flying School and certainly no regrets about going there from our home to the West of Bristol. Indeed now have a share in a plane at Gloucester so don't discount it - pm me if you want any info, we can arrange a call. Chris

[Colin G]

Haven't got time at the moment for a full reply, but one thing that I must say is that golfcharlie, you are talking a whole load of bo11ock$.

[Volare]

Delauney wrote:
Our Paths may of crossed Airtourer Flyer, during my PPL course with BFC I never had a lesson cancelled just down to the cross wind limits being exceeded, granted several lessons were binned down to poor weather - just like any other airfield?

I too never had a lesson cancelled due to crosswinds at at Staverton, like I said, it's possible that lessons could be cancelled due to crosswinds with just the one runway available. At Stavers we used to practise X wind ops by choosing a suitable (should that be unsuitable) runway, but we could do it in a controlled way.

Soon after I got my PPL I bought the Airtourer and based that Lulsgate. I was there until '03 when BIA chucked everyone out of the Global Hangars and gave them over to British Airways/Brymon. I enjoyed about 8 years of fantastic flying out of BIA so I had plenty of X wind experience.

I agree with Steve that ATC at BIA is very good and very understanding of the needs of light aircraft pilots. It's just that I think there are far better places to learn to fly ab initio PPL.

I have, on some occasions, sat at the hold at BIA for 20 min or more waiting for landing/departing commercials and wake to dissipate, this is no fault of ATC, just a fact that sometimes happens at a busy commercial airport. To be fair, this can happen at any airfield if there are enough in the circuit.

[SteveN]

I think t8caa sums up Bristol well. As everyone knows that regularly fly around Bristol, Their ATC are first rate, friendly to GA and very accommodating. I have never been refused a transit. However the airport itself knows which side it's bread is buttered. One of the old CFI's at BFC told me the airport made more money from serving one 737 that from the whole of it's GA movements in his time. So if GA impedes one extra CAT movement it's an easy choice for them to discourage it with pricing.

[golfcharlie]

Well done Densflyer! A true achievement which shows what planning, determination and organisation can achieve.

[golfcharlie]

Iceman, I think you have your answer. From those with first-hand experience and personal knowledge of the locality.

[fuzzy6988]

Even if there is a convenient flying school available in the UK, the time and money wasted with travelling to/from, the weather, aircraft that go tech, instructors that suddenly disappear to an airline... will rapidly discourage all but the most determined.

Weather is probably the most determining factor. For this reason some UK schools have set up shop in Spain. In US flight schools, aircraft will also go tech and instructors will also disappear to other jobs too.

I learnt in the US. The total package only worked out to be cheaper when the exchange rate was around £1 = $2 some years ago. Now it works out about the same, particularly with the recent hike in AVGAS taxes to fund NextGen. The main advantage is that you can take a 3-4 week intensive course vs. a 8-10 week course structured around the weather in this country.

Big airports do not provide the right training or inculcate the right degree of independent judgement that is needed for the UK GA pilot intending to go places

It really depends on the places you want to go post-PPL. If you like daytime VFR strip flying, then the small strip training environment is useful. Short-field and soft-field techniques are taught on the PPL syllabus. But to travel anywhere on business or tourism to the larger towns and cities, you'll be going into busier airports with commercial traffic.

I suspect some private pilots in this country have limited experience with flying in controlled airspace - when in fact it could make your flying from A to B easier; as well as getting around big, busier multi-runway airports.